Mormon Talk

There are even some contradictions within, from the prophet from the book….can you help
A Mormon will “bear his testimony” by declaring, “Joseph Smith is a prophet of God and the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.” This testimony presents the two basic Mormon presuppositions.

If Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon are both “of God” then the two should be consistent with each other, especially in regards to their teachings about the nature of God and His relationship to us.

But are they? To answer this question passages from the Book of Mormon will be presented followed by quotes from the writings of Joseph Smith.

The quotations will be presented without comment, with the most pertinent parts emphasized.(1) This way, the reader can decide for yourself how consistent these “inspired” sources are on these vital topics.

One God or Many?

Book of Mormon:
“And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: IS THERE MORE THAN ONE GOD? And he answered, NO” (Alma 11:26-29).(2)

Joseph Smith:
“And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and THEY, THAT IS THE GODS, organized and formed the havens and the earth.”

“And THEY (THE GODS) said: Let there be light; and there was light.”

“And THE GODS TOOK COUNSEL AMONG THEMSELVES and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness.”

“And THE GODS SAID AMONG THEMSELVES: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will rest on the seventh time from all our work which we have counseled.”(3)

The Father, Son, and Spirit:
One or Three?

Book of Mormon:
“And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, WHICH IS ONE GOD. Amen” (Introduction: Testimony of three witnesses).

“… every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, WHICH IS ONE ETERNAL GOD” (Alma 1:44b).(4)

“Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I AM JESUS CHRIST. I AM THE FATHER AND THE SON” (Ether 3:14).

“Teach them that redemption cometh through CHRIST THE LORD, WHO IS THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER. Amen” (Mosiah 16:15; see also 2Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 15:1-5; Alma 11:38,39; 3Nephi 11:27,36; Mormon 7:7).

Joseph Smith:
“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, JESUS CHRIST A SEPARATE AND DISTINCT PERSONAGE FROM GOD THE FATHER, and the Holy Spirit was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute THREE DISTINCT PERSONAGES AND THREE GODS.”(5)

“Peter and Stephen testify that they saw the son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Any person that had seen the heavens opened knows that there are THREE PERSONAGES in the heavens who hold the keys of power, and one presides over all.”(6)

“When the light rested upon me I saw TWO PERSONAGES, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other - This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!”(7,8)

God: Spirit or Flesh?

Book of Mormon:
“And the king said: IS GOD THAT GREAT SPIRIT that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem? And Aaron said unto him: YEA, HE IS THAT GREAT SPIRIT, and he created all things both in heaven and in earth” (Alma 22:9,10a).

“And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a GREAT SPIRIT? And he said, Yea. And Ammon said: THIS IS GOD” (Alma 18:26-28a).

“Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that THOU WAST A SPIRIT, AND THAT THOU ART A SPIRIT, AND THAT THOU WILT BE A SPIRIT FOREVER” (Alma 31:15).

Joseph Smith:
“If the veil were rent today and the great God who holds this world on its orbit and who upholds all worlds and things by His power was to make Himself visible, - I say, if you were to see Him today, you would see Him LIKE A MAN IN FORM - like yourselves in all the person, image, and VERY FORM AS A MAN….”(9)

“THE FATHER HAS A BODY OF FLESH AND BONES as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of spirit.”(10)

Always God or an Exalted Man?

Book of Mormon:
“For do we not read that GOD IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?” (Mormon 9:9).

“For behold, GOD knowing all things, BEING FROM EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men” (Moroni 7:22).

“For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but HE IS UNCHANGEABLE FROM ALL ETERNITY TO ALL ETERNITY” (Moroni 8:18).

Joseph Smith:
“GOD HIMSELF WAS ONCE AS WE ARE NOW AND IS AN EXALTED MAN and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!…

“It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that HE WAS ONCE A MAN LIKE US; yea, that God Himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.”(11)

Praise God or Become a God?

Book of Mormon:
“… that I might go down in peace, and my immortal spirit may join the choirs above in SINGING THE PRAISES OF A JUST GOD” (Mosiah 2:28b).

“And he [Jesus Christ] hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to SING CEASELESS PRAISES with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end” (Mormon 7:7).

Joseph Smith:
“Gods have an ascendency over the angels, who are ministering spirits. In the resurrection, some are raised to be angels; others are RAISED TO BECOME GODS.”(12)

“… they [a righteous, resurrected husband and wife] will pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fullness and continuation of the seeds forever and ever. THEN THEY SHALL BE GODS, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then they shall be above all, because all things are subject to them. THEN SHALL THEY BE GODS, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.”(13)

“… because they [Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] did none other things than that which was commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but ARE GODS.”(14)

I have been investigating LDS for about 2 months now. I don’t think I’m ready for the Missionaries just yet, they focus on becoming Baptized mainly from what I understand. Not that I have a problem with being Baptized but, it has to be for real within me first. I’m learning as much as I can on my own, sometimes that’s hard. Some positive things have be happening since I started studying, that’s hopeful. It would be really helpful if I was able to e-mail or chat with an LDS member in my area (Western MA.) from time to time.
Thanks for taking the time to read this & take care.

Hi, Remember me?
I am Norman the Mormon
I am the seal-blower…
I have now had my Mullet shaved off…
Have you seen the new series of the Osbournes? after all, its my favourite program (being AMERICAN and all…)

BYE NOW!

I was just going through all the messages on the board and realized that almost every single Christian (I choose to seperate the terms mormons and Christians) have given logical arguments concerning the bible. All of the mormons seem to hide behind their mantra that they repeat over and over again in order to help them (or assure themselves) that they hold the truth. I want to see even one mormon give a reliable fact that can prove the validity of Mormon doctrine. Or you could just go with mormon366 way of concluding that the church of latter day saints is true by spouting off some testimony that every mormon has learned since they could speak. Now I don’t know about you but I know that there are plenty of testimonies in every religion (actually more apparant in cults) that states anywhere from satan being able to overcome god during the latter days all the way a giant asteroid coming by that we could hop onto after killing ourselves.
Doesn’t it seem very suspicious to you that Joseph Smith translated some old tablets that were found in the ground and they magically dissapeared? There are about fourteen different versions of the vision, which one is the correct one? The “first vision” actually was what Joseph Smith described as a bloody ghost that would show him where some treasure was buried. This soon developed into an angel and then eventually to the father and the son. (I find it more likely for a bloody ghost to visit someone of Joseph’s stature than ever the father and the son, but that’s just my opinion).
Before Joseph Smith’s death some of his friends decided to play a joke on him and engrave a tablet with some phony symbols then bury it along with a few bones. They showed the tablet to Joseph and he started to translate the stone, however before he got finished “translating” it, he was killed. Later a group of scientists decided to check the age of that particlar tablet and through carbon dating found it was from the mid-1800’s. In the Book of Abraham, in which Joseph found an ancient tablet engraved with “reformed Egyptian,” his translation abilities truly shone through, here is an example of what he translated for a hieroglyphic that simply meant “pool.” Book of Abraham 1:12 And it came topass that the priest laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, and they did those virgins upon this alter…and so on.
Let’s look at some quotes by well known members of the mormon church..
Bruce R. McConkie
“No true Latter-day Saint will ever take a stand that is in opposition to what the Lord has revealed those who direct the affairs of his earthly Kingdom. No Latter day saint who is true and faithful in all things will ever pursue a course,or espouse a cause, or publish an article or book that weakens or destroys the faith.”

Marion G. Romney
“Always keep your eye on the president of the church,and if he ever tells you to do anythying even if it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it but yu don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.” Wow doesn’t that seem like a circular statement?
I was talking to one of my mormon friends and I told him to read the biography “Know man knows my history: a life of Joseph Smith” that was written by a mormon (and no it wasn’t a person researching from an anti-mormon site). But he told me he didn’t want to read anything to make him doubt his faith. Don’t you want to know the truth? I know I have researched the bible many times over in order to decide whether I wanted to stay Christin or not, I chose to because there is plenty of historical accuracy involved with the bible. Mormons can fail to point out one. Why does the book of mormon make references to horses when horses were not even on the North American continent until about the 16th century? Where are are all of the cities the book of mormon talks about? There fails to be any archaelogical evidence of any of the books bold statement (excluding a stone that supposedly depicted Tree of Life vision).
Sally made the statement that we are a bunch of “parrots” for looking on anti-mormon sites and repeating what we see. That has to be one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard..why don’t you tell me your testimony again?

Mormon 210,

I asked you the following:
“Am I correct in interpreting what you have said is that salvation is bestowed upon man by other men?”
You answered: “Your half correct. My explanation clearly said “bestow” and “authority”. Two words we use regularly. Particularly authority. As Christ went to be baptized (since he was perfect why was he baptized, additionally, why didn’t he just grab the local believer instead of seeking out John). Hebrews talks about authority, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants specifically define the authority. Therefore the answer is yes someone with the authority to bestow blessing must bestow them and then with the blessing (or commitment of baptism as an outward sign and following the example of our Savior) one can if faithful receive the Kingdom of God. But only the individual and his relationship with God and his (the individual) faith in the divine gift of our Savior Jesus Christ (and most importantly the Gift of Salvation offered by Christ) can define salvation for an individual.”
You have placed salvation squarely on the ability of human beings! The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is in Jesus
Christ and His sacrifice ALONE. Nowhere will you find in the Bible that one must look further than Jesus Christ for salvation because Christianity according to the Bible is confident that He alone is sufficient. It is a common characteristic of religious systems to add requirements for salvation (an excellent tactic for gaining leverage over church members), the Catholic church and LDS being two significant examples.

Regarding your claims about outer darkness and the levels of heaven or kingdoms I’d like to ask you this: If you are sealed with your family members what does that mean if one or more family members don’t live up to the standard of perfection that gets you into the celestial kingdom? Do they get there on your coat-tails? Or does that just mean that they can visit you in the celestial kingdom? And if you marry more than once in the temple who are you married to in the celestial kingdom? What if your wife hasn’t been a good enough mormon? Does she pass because you are sealed? Was Elohim sealed to Mary? Will she be sealed to Him or to Joseph in the afterlife? Was Mary the daughter of Elohim or the wife?

When I asked, “What does it mean to ““endure to the end?”” And just how perfect do you have to be?” you answered:
“Simple. Seek to obey His commandments. Follow His example. When you goof up work it out with Him through repentance (meaning turn away from) and not do it again. By doing it again (after we repent) we are indicating that we are not fully repentant of the sin, although we may feel bad about it, we still do it. Sort of like being an alcoholic and hanging out in a bar. We set ourselves up and don’t want to fully accept the offer of repentance offered by Christ.”
This doesn’t answer my question as to how perfect is enough to get into the celestial kingdom. How do you know when your life is measuring up? Is it possible for your prophet or an apostle to turn away to the point of missing out on the celestial kingdom?

You said: “After my example of  an occurrence around when God had asked the Kings of Israel were told by the Prophet to kill people because of their religions-social structure-lineage etc., you ask:
“Are you truly stating here that these two issues are equivalent? God’’s righteous anger over idolatry is justified. Your teachings of hatred are not.”
You continued: “I am not judging the situation based on who was idolatrous or who was a lineal descendant of Cain. I am saying that God, in His wisdom to protect the Saints from intrusive cultures ordered Saul (as an example) to kill an entire citizenry. It is not the curse of the Black man to be killed, in fact if you will read my earlier statements, I stated, clearly, that those who abused the Black man will receive condemnation ten fold. My example here was not to equate the Judgment of God to His decisions to remove the priesthood from the lineage of Cain. My example was to offer a balanced discussion on the issue of race, culture etc.”
Brighham Young was also about killing other whites because of their associations with blacks. He stated unequivocally that any white with an intimate association with anyone black was required to be put to death on the spot. And he added that this would ALWAYS be so. Have you redefined the term “always”? Or do you agree with Brigham’s decree? Or should it be as Joseph Smith stated when he said, “Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species.” Obviously McConkie agreed with your prophet because he said, “…the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord.” Your prophet’s claim that God restored the priesthood said nothing about an end to segregation or intermarrying so where I am supposed to get the idea that this a a balanced discussion?

I stated “God does NOT change His nature. He does NOT find something an abomination one day and change His mind about it another.” You obviously have problems with these statements. I’d like to know, are they true or false according to LDS theology? And why?

You said: “After I explained my roommates thesis (in part) noting that he understood that there were Christian Religions, particularly Catholic and Protestant (particularly Methodist, Church of Christ and in the South the Baptists) that allowed negro conversion but he indicated that seldom if at all were they ever mixed. Clearly you don’t understand the statement. He was not looking at truth. He was looking only at the acceptance of diversity in USA religions. The LDS Church, was alone in the acceptance of diversity and the conversion (acceptance of baptism) of all races. He (my roommate) was in a sense making the argument that “a true Christian church” should be accepting of all repentant souls without regard to anything.”
How do you explain the statements made by your prophets calling for absolute segregation? You cannot deny the statements as they are a part of your scripture so please explain them.

You claim that my statement as follows is prejudiced: “Mormon young men are expected to go on a mission. It is NOT spontaneous, but failure to go on a mission is seen as failure to follow the gospel.”
I have read many statements by your leadership where they say that missions are expected, in fact a commandment of following the gospel. Are they prejudiced in making such statements? Your further statement suggests that you think only a black person (as you assume I am) would have issues with the prejudices of your church. That only furthers my contention that LDS worldview is blinded by the false teachings of their leadership.

You said: “Now as for logic, You said ‘Your use of logic theory is flawed. You cannot prove a negative, Mormon 210.’ Your wrong. You most definitely can prove a negative in an argument. Because in an argument there is no positive until proven negative with an argument.”
I will assume that you have never studied argumentation or logic. In a discussion or debate the person making a claim or assertion is responsible to support that claim or assertion with evidence.   You claim that Joseph Smith saw God and you know this to be true by a personal feeling, which you call a testimony. Your personal feeling is not evidence to anyone but you. I cannot be responsible to disprove your subjective feeling. I can only respond to objective evidence. The objective evidence about the truthfulness of Joseph Smith is that he was not a reliable, consistent or truthful individual. There were multiple versions of the so called vision. There are numerous unfulfilled prophecies. There were numerous prophecies that were completely contradicted by reality. Then there’s the obvious falsification of the Book of Abraham which even an LDS scholar rejects as a true translation.

I believe that the next argument is one that you were having with Idaho Spud, not me: “Well here try this burden of proof on. You claim that man can’t see God and live, yet I showed you places that the Bible clearly states it is possible in fact it happened. Thus the basis of my argument is not denied and the fact remains that you can not prove by the Bible that Joseph Smith did not see God and Christ.”
Again, it was Idaho Spud who made the claim you are discussing. In any case I do not say that Joseph claimed to see God and lived is the reason I believe him a liar. I say he is a liar because he has made claims on God’s behalf that are clearly not of God. According to the standard of the Bible, Joseph Smith has shown himself a false prophet.  Should we test a prophet? What standard should we use? Does Joseph Smith pass that test? What should we do with the standard that has already been set by the Bible for the testing of prophets?

Here is your response concerning Mr. Abel:  
“Back to Brother Abel- so what!?!?! I am greatful for Brother Elijah Abel. For his example of overcoming the self centered notion of self pity. He could have groveled and complained but he did not. Additionally, His ethnicity is claimed to have been less than one eighth African. He receives a patriarchal blessing and is not given a lineage simply noted that he is orphaned and the patriarch states that he will be in the Kingdom of God as one of His great ones. Additionally, as a matter of reference he was ordained a seventy of a ward in Kirtland in 1839 (of which there were a few). This is far different than a 1st Quorum of the Seventy.”
Have you never seen a picture of the man? The man is black! Not 1/8th.  He’s black! And his children were black. And they, too were given the priesthood. I ask again, How is it possible to confer the priesthood upon someone and his progeny when God expressly forbids it? And even if it were true that the man was one eighth black (which obviously is not the case) your leadership said that the slightest drop of African blood meant no priesthood. Brigham Young even went so far as to say that the priesthood authority would be removed from the church if blacks were given the priesthood. So maybe you are in a church where the priesthood has been removed after all. Black men were given the priesthood at a time God clearly said not to. And God stated, through Brigham Young, what the consequences would be if that was ignored. It was obviously ignored. As far as the difference between being a seventy and a 1st quorum of seventy, the man was still given a leadership position meant for someone holding the priesthood.

Next you quote me saying the following:
“You ask me about your motivation. You belong to a very powerful and alluring culture. There is much reinforcement and reward for being a good Mormon in your community. Mormons place more value on the approval of other mormons than the approval of God. In fairness I make the same charge against the ““Sunday Christians”” in the Christian church. My motivation is to take a stand, as God says I should, when people who claim to speak with the authority of God are leading others into a false belief of Jesus Christ.”
Then you respond with:   
“I am thoroughly appalled that you would judge intent (knowing that this is God’s job). Why do you think that you can lip claim Christ and then be saved, while I back up what I say with good works and you claim them to be based simply on the acceptance of other Mormons? What is the culture and why is it alluring? I do appreciate your work for Christ, but I believe that you are wrong in your fullness. You may have some of His work but it is not complete and often time in contradiction to the work He gave. You my friend have a great deal of soul searching. Think about it for a while and let me know. Do you want to visit with the missionaries?”

Who determines, Mormon 210, whether or not you are living a life worthy of a temple visit? Don’t mormons have to go through their bishop to get a temple recommend? Aren’t you relying on the judgment of another man to decide who is worthy? If you were relying only on God then you could walk through the door without question. You are proving to men that you are worthy. And how do you know that I only give “lip” service to Christ but do no good works? I think an obvious difference in our stated motivations is that I do works for the Lord because He deserves the glory. You hope that your works will give YOU glory. Why don’t you share with me what work it is God has given me that I am contradicting. If you would like to send more missionaries my way, please feel free to do so. These young men, who for some reason are called “elders, have left here having been unable to answer my questions without revealing the doubts in their own hearts. Two young men came back several different times asking to take my questions to their bishop. Each time they left with more questions in their own minds. Another brought a church leader with them whose final recourse was to put the BOM on the table and say “You can’t believe everything you read.” Then there’s the two who brought over a black mormon missionary ( it took them a few months to find one in the area). That young man, who had been a convert to the church, acknowledged that he doubted he could continue his mission after hearing the truth most mormons would like to forget exists. So, yes, send more of these “elders” if you desire. I am willing to share the sufficiency of Jesus Christ with anyone.

LDS-DH

The american Indian is who you claim is the Laminites…help me out here…What time frame did they change from Jews to Indians? Was it all of a sudden or a gradual change? Was there language changed? The beards of there face disappeared? And was the knowlege of all the great cities and monies and mining forgotten? I would like to go exploring with Just Passing thru to go to the different tribes and research there heritage and see if there history supports how they came into being? Any support out there…Lets take some vacation time…

On easter sunday a three year old boy that is dieing because he has a brain tumor bore his testomony. It was amazing my mom said it was just like a testomony from an angel. It has really had me thinking and I have been having a hard time lately with things. My good friend told me I just really need to pray. I have a hard time praying though because I think it is weird to talk to what seems yourself though I know im not. Has anyone else had this problem? What did you do?

I agree, Mormon. It’s too difficult to follow in here. Your last post for some reason is even cutting off the last few words of each line. Would you mind reposting “Answers Part ll” on VOY? We can continue from there. Thanks
LDS_DH

You guys are rediculous. you would believe what this john smith charecter or joseph smith whatever his name is, over the Lord Our Savior Jesus Christ. that is insane. and you guys call yourself christian. give me a break.

To be honest, I am tired of the aurguing. Lets discuss current events.

There are alot of smarter people than myself that have discussed these issue before.

There sure is a ton of stuff on the church on the internet…The McClleain story, Hoffman, and so much more, from forgeries of the BOM and aliens, underneath Utah…WOW…too much…

anyway, I want to discuss the MARK of the Beast, and how some people think the antichrist is supposed to be the next Pope.

I have found a few interesting sites on them…But my own opinion about the mark of the beast comes from the news daily…I bring up the kidnapping of children…It has been in the news alot here lately and even more over the past years…along with that a new chip comes out that can track down the kids…and does finances…sounds good…I think many things are happening that will make this alot more believeable to the everyday Joe…The markets going bad, the Euro doing better than the dollar, the One Nation, the EU has came about, Israel has become a burdomesome stone to all the Nations. I read on there news and it says, China, Russuia, Turkey, US, and many others want it resolved. I feel our nation is going to the dogs…we are trying to take out God out of everything…A falling away…any comments