Yeah. Let's start over - and discuss the same OLD (& new) things: because ALL of this LAST DAYS stuff is 2,000 years old, and to you and me it is all new. We KNOW that all the previous interpretations of the SIGNS OF THE TIMES were WRONG. But NOW is the generation in which they have been and are being fulfilled. If I sound a little sarcastic, I am feeling that way.

(By the way, thanks for the URL to the Nibley-bash site: I love it: looked over a few of the accusations of his "lying" and found them immediately funny. I mean, it is literally impossible to please everybody. The man is a tremendous talent, and his brain moves over material at an incredible rate while he stands there talking: you will miss half of what he is saying if you stop to think. Afterward, you can go over it all and marvel. Yeah, he's said some things that aren't quite word for word: but I have never heard him make anything up, or outright get any passage wrong. Nitpicking to the max is what I saw right away: accusing him of lying is very harsh: because the objection was over the choice of exact words, not changing the meaning of anything. Anyway, I find jealous people irritating and interesting at the same time: I was at a symposium where Dr Nibley spoke, and the colleague who introduced him said: "Brother Nibley is the only church scholar I know who has ever been invited here to give the same talk twice." It was meant to be funny, but was obviously a slam from a man who is jealous of Nibley's "legendary" status. People in the gospel of Christ are supposed to be above such things: and Nibley always has been - a very gracious and humble person. And honest to a fault: a very famous incident regarding his cutting honesty occured many years back, during a BYU commencement exercise, where Nibely was invited to offer the invocation: he moved up to the podium, wearing the cap and gown, and then he said words to the effect: "Heavenly Father; we come before thee, gathered together wearing the robes of a false priesthood." Needless to say, he caught flack over that one: but hardly anyone was interested in why he said it. It all has to do with getting down to the center of our religion, which covers enough truth seeking to last several mortal lifetimes. He is now well into his 90s and still going strong, last I heard.)

The "mark of the beast" has seemed to me a literal mark, just as described in Revelations: and I have always said, that if the day ever comes that my children or yet-unborn grandchildren, or MYSELF, are required by law to receive a "chip" in hand or forehead, that is the day I will cease to be a citizen of this nation. The antiChrist/Beast himself and his successor(s) will certainly be a single individual. They will come into power from an ignominious source (a people without honor), and their elevation will be resented by many. It will not last long: c. 42 months (Daniel and Revelations both agree on that): during which time frame the antiChrist will have power over the Saints, to bind them in prisons and kill them and enter their temples as if we were God, and he will claim to be greater than God. Forty-two months (three and a half years) is a long time to endure such terror. Meanwhile, Israel will be cut off from all political support and stand alone against the massed armies of the "united" world: 600 million men, if memory serves (I am going with this rehash totally from memory). Half the city of Jerusalem will be in flames and captured: half the Israeli army and population killed and captured, and the rest will be girding for the final battle: when Christ will come and rescue them by a cataclysmic intervention (spliting mount of Olives, earthquake and so forth). Then the Jews will see the prints of the nails in his hands and realize their mistaken past with tears. The wicked will be largely consumed in the cataclysm, the rest will fight amongst themselves to destruction. Christ will show himself to the whole earth (as the sun rising out of the east) and the wicked will then be burnt, while the righteous will be saved; evidently, if taken literally, by being removed from the surface of the planet while the cleansing fire does its work. (Your "rapture"; but it sounds rather scientific to me, not mystical, but a very real and physical removal.) Then the Millennium will begin and the earth will be renewed in its former paradisiacal glory. Christ will rule and reign as king of the earth for "a thousand years of peace."

Timing is what is on everyone's mind: WHEN? God alone knows. Not even the angels of heaven know when Christ comes. You would be mistaken to try and date the second coming using our calendars: they are so corrupt and manmade that I am sure God's timing doesn't equate with ours to the slightest degree. It doesn't matter. Would knowing WHEN make me more righteous? Nope: just more careful to cross all my "T"s and dot all my "I"s. God who knows my heart would not be impressed. So I should be living all the time as if my next breath were to be my last. That way, if I am around (or not) to meet the Beast in the flesh it matters not at all. Soon enough I will be dead anyway, and my meeting with my Savior will be a personal reality.

Joseph Smith taught that the final consumption of the world decreed would bring about an end to all nations. He also said that man is incapable of governing himself. He was right, of course: governing nations is perhaps the activity that mankind has failed miserably at the most. All good starts become dictatorships. All unions becomes oppressive eventually: ours included: I agree that things are looking worse for our civil rights and freedoms. Excuses of needing national security don't wash with me. Individual freedom is the answer: but control freaks in politics don't have any fun *controlling* millions of free individuals. Keep your guns handy and pass out the bullets after church is over: that's sort of how I look at the world: practice your religion, worshipping God, and be ready to shoot the mad dogs when they come near. I hope I never have to....

The pope is not my top choice for the antiChrist. I rather imagine it will be someone who was once highly thought of in the true faith: who possesses lots of knowledge of religious matters, and then turns totally away from his upbringing and fights against his own people. In Daniel we are told that his disciples will perform "exploits" (it is an inserted word in the KJ Bible: but the inference of "they shall do" means that mighty and momentous things will be done by them - "exploits" works, but I like "prodigies" even better). But Daniel also says that the righteous will perform "exploits." In other words, the fight will produce champions who will do amazing things for their side. The righteous will have some leaders turn to the dark; to try the righteous and "make them white" i. e. purify their souls. It sounds like a terrifying and exciting time to live through! The real clincher, the one physical detail which will be utterly outside the capacity of the evil side to prevent, will be the raising up of the two prophets in Jerusalem, who will also prophecy and control the weather and be unkillable for 42 months (I suspect during the same time as the reign of the antiChrist). They will eventually be killed and lie in the streets for three days, while the wicked rejoice and congratulate each other: but then the voice will come from heaven, and life will return to their bodies and before the eyes of the world they will be seen to rise up. This event is immediately before the final destruction of the wicked (i. e. anytime afterward not too terribly long, months or a few years). At any rate, in our church, it is generally believed the two prophets spoken of will be a couple of our apostles, or perhaps some converted Jews in Jerusalem. Nobody knows.

"As if HE were God" - I am tired and even proofreading my own stuff isn't good enough tonight....

Yeah, it will be interesting...to see...the only difference from years past to now is that Israel is in their promised land again...in 1948...and many scholars believe that this is the generation that will not pass before the lord comes...And many scholars believe that all prophecies have been fulfilled and we are just waiting for the return...Many scholars also believe in the pre Tribulatin Rapture...and as many who believe in the Post Tribulation Rapture...I find these both very interesting...

I don't know where they get this stuff: I mean, there is ZERO from the Bible on the "Rapture." It is all a concoction of the "scholars", adding to what has been speculated upon in the past. There is no REVELATION here.

Who (maybe you can tell me) first coined the word "Rapture" to define the saving of the faithful in the last consumption of the world?

I think arguing about pre-tribulation or post-tribulation Rapture is like two groups of people arguing about whether or not there will be high technology or low technology during the Millennium: no one knows if "technology" as we understand the term even exists in heaven.

Equally, why worry about whether or not the faithful are saved before or after the final calamity?

I guess it stems from uncertainty: have the faithful already started to vanish, or will their vanishing be a sign for the less-faithful of us to have time to repent: or will their vanishing be after the tribulations and therefore immediately before the rest of us get burned up? (Too late!) It smacks, to me, of wanting some assurrance, that the Rapture will not happen too quickly, so that we can still party and put off repenting up till the time it occurs: and then we will know for certain that the end is coming soon, and we can then repent in the time of the tribulations. (Why people think they will be stronger, more able to repent, tomorrow, rather than today, is a puzzlement to me.) Also an uncertainty in the timing of the tribulations spoken of: some have committed themselves to rather rigid time constraints here, based on false confidence in their own interpretation of the prophecies. Things are not timing out as they should, and so someone has come up with the modified idea that the Rapture is in fact going to occur after the tribulations, and not before: thus ensuring that we must go through hell on earth before we are saved. (That way no one can say we have gone through enough and there is no Rapture: it can always get worse, and go on longer than expected: and therefore the Rapture can be postponed indefinitely - until it is either personally a moot point, or else Christ comes.)

Idaho, again you are so self important. As if YOUR opinion about the "mark" is worth a pile of poo! Here goes your bunch of silly guesses. You wish you were a prophet and you pretend to be one with your great insights! Go blow it out on some evangelical site, maybe you'll get another hand to pat you on the back besides your own. Praise is what you seek but you'll get none here. Mormons are, for the most part, not interested in guesses. We know that questions like this can be answered only through revelation by the Holy Ghost which is indeed available to each individual, but you do not believe that God can do it so you'll just stick to a GUESS. Guesses arent worth a thing when it comes to secrets of the gospel. If you ever were to humble yourself and repent and then ask God about these things, and if He did show you them you would not be able to write them here because they are secret for a reason and the are sacred and hidden from most.

man somebody pissed in your wheaties or what? Never, have I claimed about nothing...or prophicied like your false prophet did...All I said was lets discuss something else...or would you have some thing to talk about...rude rude mormon...lol

Well just passin...there are some verses..that talk of a thief in the night...not knowing when the master returns...where he meets them in the air, the dead in Christ shall rise first and then those in christ in a twinkling of an eye....Why else should we be ready...or the 10 virgins the ones who missed it...

Mr Spud: That's right, you've about covered what the Bible has to say about this Last Days phenomenon now commonly refered to as the "Rapture." Do you, a practicing Christian, KNOW where & when this term first got coined? I would like to find out how long "Rapture" has been in use amongst the Christian community. I don't have a problem with it: it's just that I believe we should be aware of when manmade terms come into common usage, and distinguish between them and Biblical terms. (Eg. Mormons use the term "free agency", a term never repeated anywhere in scripture, to describe "agency of man", the free gift of God to us allowing us to make choices.) "Caught up into the air to meet Christ" is Biblical: "The dead in Christ" rising first - Biblical: "depart from me, I never knew you" - Biblical. I just think the concept of a delayed judgment following the "Rapture" event is dangerous to teach. The "like a thief in the night" (Biblical) concept is a very clear warning: and it seems to me, that if preachers and teachers are going to even touch on the idea (and argue the point) that the faithful go first, and then a period of time remains for the rest of us to get right with God during the "tribulations", that this concept is encouraging people to put off repenting of their sins until they see people suddenly *go missing*, thus making the "Rapture" an obvious sign of the times so that we can now finally get serious about this end-of-the-world stuff. As long as we can count heads and no one is gone, we have nothing to worry about....yet! LOL

Well it is interesting...The last Trump of God...it is like when they used the trump to call people to assemble or to get ready for war...

I think this has possibilities, becuase why else be ready? If things happen when we know of them, why else be prepared...like the ten virgins...they missed...so something has to happen where the lord comes back and people who have been aware of his teachings do not accept them...they miss the wedding feast...but the Lord doesn't want anyone to perish...kind of like in Egypt where he hardened Pharoh's heart so that he could prove to the Egypitians that he was God...

My question would be who are the ones Dead in Christ? Is it everyone that has died after Christ? Or the ones before? I think when the church is gone from the earth, that gives the antichrist clear and free power where as we see today christians interfeering with In GoD we trust, and morals etc...

The new age movement will jump on the bandwagon, because they feel that everyone should have their own beliefs, etc...

One movement that is growing today is the WICCA or Witches and such...the movie Harry Potter, makes it so kids want to cast spells and opens their hearts to black magic...people are accepting this behavior...

Another child kidnapped today. Interesting to see things unfold....

The "trump of God" will sound often: to announce Christ's coming and to raise the dead, etc. I doubt that the wicked will hear any such "trump" when it sounds for the rightous to be caught up in the "Rapture." Unless, of course, this occurs at the very end - which I personally believe is the truth of the matter.

The "dead in Christ" simply means all those who have already died before he returns - who died believing in him as the God of their Salvation - and went to Paradise rather than hell to await the day of the resurrection.

"Harry Potter" is only dangerous to kids who have no religious training. If you are raised in a Christian home, the allegorical content and the good lessons to be learned from fantasy stories are worthy. "The Lord of the Rings" is a terrific story (and movie so far) and crammed with real-life good vs evil plot lines. J. R. R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic with a deep religious view of the real world. Great stuff. "Harry Potter" is only a clever shadow of all that Tolkien created; without which HP would not even exist. I agree that Wiccanism etc., is on the rise worldwide. This is only prophetic fulfillment. It is caused by the failure of religion: or rather, failure of people to live their religion. Their children turn where they may for spiritual insight: to HP even. And yes, sorcery is real: my 11 year-old son just now (coincidentally) asked: "Dad, is there such a thing as 'dark powers'?" I said: "Yes. There's such a thing as 'Light powers' and so there are dark powers." Kids need to know this stuff is REAL, not just make believe. Then HP will lose its attraction over the kids who want to be good. As for those who are drawn to evil, no movie will make the slightest difference: without the movies, people of the past always found the powers of evil that they sought.

You have mentioned kids going missing a few times now: what do you mean by "seeing things unfold?" - Specifically, I mean. Having children being stolen is an evil, part of the general evil in the world as always: but how is the nabbing of children today significant of "signs of the times?"