Just Curious

Thank you so much for responding to me Mormnon and LDS DH. It is very nice to hear insight from both a non-member and member of the Mormon church. I have a question for Mormon however, how do you know the Book of Mormon has not been corrupted by mans hand also? Is it just a matter of faith? Why can't you have the same faith in the Bible that you put in the Book of Mormon?
Thank you so much for taking the time to give this information to a non-member.

Where are the original plates that contained the Book of Mormon? If Moroni buried them then how do you know that Joseph Smith really translated them correctly? Are you positive that there hasn't been any changes to the Book of Mormon over these past (about) 150 years? Compare the translation of the Book of Isaiah to the Mormon Book of Abraham, Which one would you rather believe? How do you know the length of time that elapsed between Christs death and the writings of the New Testament? Some say it was even 20 years, enough time to have plenty of first hand accounts of Christs miracles and resurrection. I have another question, do you believe that Joseph Smith is better than God?

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the Grace of Christ and are turning to a different Gospel--which is really no Gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the Gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:6-9 (I am not trying to say with this verse that you will go to hell, that is up to Christ alone).

Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

I really enjoy talking to you Mormon and thank you so much for sharing some of your beliefs (even though I believe them to be false). I hope we can continue to talk, I would love to hear some of your experiences with God that I have heard much about on this message board.

God Bless you

Hi, Im back and I'll start where I left off.
You write: "Im astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--which is really no gospel at all."
Who told you this? Men did. You are parroting anti Mormon preachers and you've taken their word as true too quickly. God commanded that you "pray lest ye enter into temptation" not that you listen to, and then immediatly believe men's interpretation of religion and scripture. It's a very touchy subject I know, but it's the most important one of all. Im sure you agree or you wouldnt be here.
When Paul wrote the scripture you have assumed applies to us, he did use the word "quickly" and if that word applies why do you think it's us and not Constantine and that church? In the year 300 the Christian church was falling apart at the seams and many Christian sects (and there were m a n y)
taught "different gospels". What about them? How do you know which one of them taught that perfect gospel of Christ? What makes you think Constantine did and the others didnt?
You quote a scripture from the Bible that I know very well..."If we or an angel..."
I wonder if you've read it in it's context? The anti Mormons surely arent going to because then it wouldnt apply as well. Paul makes it clear that he is speaking of men and NOT angels. He says "Again, if we or any MAN teach any other gospel...."
Sometimes the word "men" and the word "angel" are used interchangably.
So are "heaven" and "heaven on earth/true church" used interchangably.
Have you also read the scripture in Rev. that says an angel will come and teach the everlasting gospel in the last days? Would you be so bold as to tell that angel, "No thanks, I have all the gospel I need in the Bible and in my pastors words."?

That angel has come and what can God do to prove it to you? Nothing if you do not pray and ask Him about it and consider the possibility with no motive in your heart but finding the truth. The religious leaders in Christ's day rejected him and told all their followers that He was a corruptor of religion. So can you really trust a preacher of religion to give you the whole truth about the Mormon faith which claims boldly to be the restored gospel of Christ?
I believe in Christ and all His words. The Bible, however is not flawless and it is not complete and the Bible itself says so.
Mormons do not add to God's word by accepting another testament of Christ just as Christians did not add to God's word by accepting both the Old and New Testaments.
I guarentee, and God will too if you dare to ask Him, that I will not be proven a liar in the end. I hope you dont wait until then to find out. God is real and I know He is. I look forward to sharing my experiences with you and explaining why I believe what I believe and I also would like to hear of your experiences.
Tell me a little about yourself, like how old, where you live and what your interests are. Do you know any Mormons?
Thanks for the discussion so far.

Dear JC,
I realize that was from the Bible. I told you already I love the Bible. I know the scripture and I think it applies to the christianity you have been left with thanks to Constantine. I over looked nothing, please dont be snide with me.
The Bible is most certainly not anti Mormon any more than the Old Testament was anti Christ...yet the anti Christs are the very ones who believed in the Old Testament prophets and used the Old Testament writings to back their denial of Him! Same thing anti Mormons do.
You ask: "How do you KNOW JSmith was a prophet?" I'll tell you the honest truth JC, I asked God because I believed He was real. He'd answered my prayers very literally in the past about things that were much less important. I told Him that I didnt feel I could testify of something I did not KNOW for myself. I wanted to have a more perfect faith and have it be based in what He would have me base it in. I didnt KNOW JSmith was for sure a prophet at this time. I believed he could have been but wasnt so bold to say I knew for sure one way or another. There's pretty convincing proof on both sided of this argument, men certainly have their strong opinions. I didnt want man's opinion. I didnt want man's opinion on Bible verses. I wanted only the opinion from the very source of truth. So, I repented of my sins and begged God to let me know one way or the other. He answered me with a literal voice which penetrated my whole body, not just my ears. Now I KNOW who JSmith was and no matter who tries to get me to deny God, I will not do it. If you claim it was a false spirit, then I want to know what test Paul gave to the Spirit that taught him who Christ really was. Im quite sure all of his Pharisee buddys believed with all their hearts that Paul had seen a "false witness" and tried to convince him that he ought to listen to the "true witness" which they believed was themselves and their interpretation of the words of dead prophets.
Christ addressed this same issue you bring up with me about all religions thinking they KNOW something.
He asked his Apostles, "who do men say that I am?" And they told him of the many rumors that floated around about who exactly he was. Did he really care what men thought or was he about to teach a lesson here?
Peter answered and said "thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Now here's the lesson, He replied "Blessed art thou Peter, for flesh and blood(men and opinions) have not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which art in Heaven.
Peter did not care what flaws men saw in his Lord. It did not matter what proof was brought against Him, and plenty was. It did not matter what mis interpreted scripture was brought against Him. Peter KNEW without any doubt because God the Father had REVEALED it to him. It trumps everything else that man can come up with and call proof.
I can boldly say that I KNOW now who JSmith was to God. You can settle for a guess if you want to and you can gather all the evidence which you "believe" with all your heart equals proof...but until you have faith that God is real and can speak and can help...you guess from circumstancial evidence, who JSmith was.
You may say the "plate was found and judged by men to be whatever" but will that judgement be worth a pile of poo against full truth? If you didnt know it, a letter was found in the 80's and scientist and historians alike claimed it was authentic. It portrayed JSmith as a cultist. The anti Mormons hearalded it and called it "proof". Time revealed it to be a fake...where are all those anti's now? Off to look for more "proof" which they honestly believe in.
I cant trust them JC. I trust myself, the scriptures as long as I understand them by the power of the Spirit, and in God my Eternal Father.
You may think I ought to consider this or that "proof" and there was a time when I did. But I have now reached a conclusion that I cannot deny is fully true.
Do I leave my God who was so kind and gracious enough to hear and answer my sincerest desire for truth and follow you? I cant do it, you understand, just as Paul or Peter would not have done it.
Now if you want to ask my opinion on this or that as far as "proof" against my God goes... I will answer to it as best I can.
I gotta go but Ill read the rest of your letter latter and comment. Thanks

Mormon,
That was a very moving post that you wrote me. It is great to hear your perspective and I realize now how precious your religion is to you. (For the record I was not trying to be snide when I said you overlooked the versus was from the Bible, I really meant that you may have accidently looked over it when you were reading because I know I sometimes don't read all of the message). Now to move on.

The Bible teaches nowhere in the Bible that prayer is a test for truth.
In context, one finds reference to the testing of one's faith by trials and temptations (see verses 2, 3, 12, and 13). We are exhorted, if we lack wisdom, to ask God for wisdom and understanding (not truth) when faced with trials and temptations so we may respond in a godly fashion.

The apostle Paul warned the believers in Galatia not to listen to anyone who teaches another gospel (Galatians 1:6-8). There are many false teachers who preach a "gospel" and a "Jesus," and a spirit may accompany them. But we know that there are false gospels, false christs and unholy spirits (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-14). Should we pray to find out which is which? How can we know?

The danger with praying to find truth is that spiritual testimonies are a dime a dozen, and those which are valid may be difficult to distinguish from those which are not. We cannot trust the feelings of our hearts (Proverbs 28:26; Jeremiah 17:9), nor can we trust every spiritual witness (1 John 4:1-6). Called to be like the Bereans of Acts 17:11, we need to "search the Scriptures daily" to see if what Mormonism teaches is true. The biblical test focuses on the Word of God as our standard for truth (2 Timothy 3:15-17); for the witness of the Holy Spirit will never contradict the Word he himself inspired--the Bible (2 Peter 1:21).
I believe with all my heart that God is true and he will answer our prayers; however, the devil can easily sway us. In the Bible he is also known as an "angel of light." When Eve was tempted in the Garden of Eden she gave in and took the apple. Why would she do that? Satan promised that Eve could be just like God. If Satan tempted you with the ability to be just like God would you do what he asked you to do? If he promised you that you could have your own world with your own people that worship you like our Father would you do it? Wouldn't Satan do anything and everything in his power to get you on his side, even pretending as if he is a good spirit, maybe even our Father who is in heaven?
I would like you to give me a few examples on how the old testament is anti-christ. On the contrary I believe it is very much for Christ. Every prophecy about the coming messiah was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. This is all I have to write right now, I hope you have a wonderful day and let's both pray that we gain wisdom and knowledge that help us distinguish between false religions.
Your friend,
(my name is really Christian03 but I kind of enjoy JC so if you stick with it that will be fine).

Hello JC,
Im kinda mad at this dumb site! I took 45 min yesterday to answer your last post and when I pushed send it said web page not availiable and "poof" it was all gone. I hate when my time is wasted! Ive got so much to do! Then sometimes it takes so long to accept the post that youre not sure it is going to so you push send again and then we end up with 2-3 of the same letter. Oh well! I'll try again.
You write: "nowhere in the Bible(does it say) that prayer is a test for truth."
You go on to say prayer is to gain wisdom and understanding(not truth).
To me, wisdom and understanding is truth are they not inseparable? If I want wisdom I want truth, if I want understanding I want more truth.
You (&Bible)say I am to ask God for wisdom and understanding when faced with trials and temptations so that I may respond in a godly manner.
Exactly! and this is what happened to me. I had friends who believed I was going to hell because of Mormonism. They were good people and so am I, I could not say whether they were right or wrong. In order not to be led into temptation, either by them or by Mormonism, I prayed.
It was a trial of my belief in God and I needed wisdom and understanding so I prayed so that I could respond the way God would want and not the way I might be tempted to. I wanted nothing more than to respond in a godly fashion.
Christ commanded that we "Pray always, lest we enter into temptation." It is why I prayed. I didnt want to be where He would not want me to be.
The Lord said "Pray lest ye enter into temptation." I did and he led me out, literally.
I totally agree with you about the false Christs & false gospels(they are false churches which offer false salvation).
The false spirit which accompany them are mens imaginations of what God wants.
Should we pray to find out which is which? Absolutly, if we want to avoid temptation. The same way Peter and Paul knew, through personal revelation of the Spirit.
I realize testimonies are a dime a dozen because people confuse "testimony" with "strong belief". If I go before a judge I can only testify of what I have witnessed, what I have seen and heard for myself. Certainly I can believe in the testimony of others, that is what Christianity is based on. But when I offer my own to another it had better be the truth and no exagerations. If I say "God said..." I better mean I actually heard "God say..." or else I am a false witness and a liar.
You believe it is hard to distinguish the liar from the honest and I agree. How do you know Paul told the truth? Enemies will point to the two very different versions and claim one of them is a lie so how can you believe any of it? What is your answer to them?
You say I cannot trust every spiritual witness and I agree. A man may come to me and promise that he does not lie about spiritual matters. He comes as a spiritual witness and I will not trust him unless I have my own witness from God.
You say we cannot trust the feelings of our heart, I agree and disagree.
I do trust the burning of the bosom which is the fire of the Spirit of God. It is different than a simple feeling. There is nothing else like it and only those who have experienced it know of it's magnitude. Unfortunatly it can only be descibed as a burning in the heart and that description does not do it justice.
I'll give you an example.
The Apostles were walking down the road after Christ's death. A man joined them and they discussed spiritual matters. The Apostles did not recognize that the man was Christ until he identified himself.
After he left they discussed the situation and commented on how they should have known and they said "did not our hearts burn within us when He spoke?"
They knew what the sign of the Spirit was and they scolded themselves for not recognizing it.
you talk about Eve and Satan and ask, "if satan tempted you(me) with the notion of becoming just like God what would I do?"
Well, first off I'd see if God had also taught it. He has, and so yes, I would believe that part of what even Satan said because God has also said it. Now my enemies will twist my beliefs and say that I expect to be worshipped and and no longer worship God and that is a lie mixed with truth which is one of Satans best tools. You want to throw out the idea of becoming like God because Satan knew about that truth and mentioned it and you assume that if Satan said it, it must be false...but there was more that he added to that truth that made his message false. Yes, men would become like God if they partook of the fruit and came to this world, the lie attatched to that was that they would not surely die. Surely they would and did suffer death.
Now what about the spirit of the one who taught you what Mormons believe about becoming like God but added their own false twist? They are liars and false accusers, plain and simple. I know they feel the end justifies the means, but breaking commandments for God's own good is what led to the murder of Christ.
You list many very good scriptures about false gospels but I want to know, have you applied this to your roots in Constantine and his redefined gospel? Have you heard about the Gnostic Christian texts which are older than any other Christian texts and contain letters from the Apostles of Christ? Much of what is there is very close to Mormon doctrine. Constantine thought he had all this stuff burned but somehow these remained. JC, I certainly dont deny that there are false gospels out there. There are many many scriptures which define what their behavior will be and Im happy to say that Mormons simply are not guilty of most of them. Our enemies may try to make it apply in a stretch of imagination but it doesnt. They pretend to be good spirits.

You wanted examples of how the OT could be applied against Christ and I will give you a couple of examples...
Again, I know the OT isnt anti Christ and you know it isnt but the Jews(who believed in them too) felt the OT was against Christ.
Personally, I dont like you insinuating that I believe this, you know I dont. I simply said MANY scripture believers of that time DID.
#1) Isa calls the Messiah the Prince of Peace and said that the works of righteousness shall be peace and there are other places in the OT which re affirm this.

Christ, in the NT (Matt.10:34) is quoted,
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
An anti believes that this is scriptural "proof" that Christ is not the Messiah that Isa. prophecied of. They use it to sway the minds of people who believe in scripture and say stuff like "Either Isa. and other dead prophets are liars, or Jesus is a false Messiah...both cannot be true." The people who listen to these false spirits scratch their heads and think, ya that makes perfect sense.
Now I know what Christ meant by those words. The sword is the sword of truth or the word of God. It always offends the wicked because they resist being corrected by truth. The sword of truth does not offend the righteous, they love it. Truth divides families and makes friends become enemies. His gospel does not bring peace to those who hate him.
The enemies dont want explanations, they want proof against Him and with that they feel they have it. The scripture believers threw him out on his ear when he claimed that he was the fulfillment of Isa's prophecy. Didnt they say something about how scripture doesnt say that anything good would come out of Nazareth!?
#2 example. Winebibbers, drinkers of alchohol.
Prov. 23:20 Be not among winebibbers...
Those who were anti Christ called Him a winebibber because he drank wine. Scripture states be not among winebibbers.
Pharisees tell followers if they believe in scripture they will not follow Christ as he is a proven winebibber.
How did Christ respond? He said I send you John the Baptist not drinking and you call him mad(crazy). I come eating and drinking and you call me a drunk.
So it just doesnt matter what way God chooses to send truth, fault will be found by anti's.
The OT has many references that the Messiah would be a King and would set up His kingdom. (Isa.32:1)
Every God believing person felt that this would be a sign that could not be missed except by the most foolish. Christ was not a king. Therefore, to a Jew, He does not fulfill scripture. Thats why they mocked him and put a sign on the cross
"king of the jews". They saw no Savior in Him, they mocked Him saying "save yourself from this death and then we'll believe"! They felt that he could not even save himself, why should they look to Him to save them?
They had scripture but they had no understanding...should they have prayed for understanding and truth? I think so.
I didnt have time to finish your other post.
You posted mens definition of everlasting and I dont accept that definition.
Everlasting and eternal are words used to refer to the eternal world outside of this relm of time. Mortal man lives in time, God lives in everlasting eternity. Its more a relm than a definition of time. God has made it clear that men cannot comprehend His time.
You claim that everlasting meant that there would be no pause in truth on earth but I know plenty of scripture to refute this notion. In the end ofcourse truth has prevailed but God said he would allow satan to overcome the saints and the truth would be taken and all of this is Biblical. (Rev13:7)
None of the works of satan would prevail in the end which is the time we now live. We live in the end times. The time of complete tribulation is over and truth has now prevailed.
I hope I got to most of your points. Please respond to my questions about why you blame us for being that false gospel mentioned and not the many many others which exsisted in 300ad. And how do you know that the gospel you have is not one of the many false ones that would claim Christ and the Bible as their root? Tell me why you have trusted Constantine to define Christianity for the masses? Do you value your right to worship God according to your own will? Do you realize that this freedom was taken by a church which claimed Christ was their root? The Bible clearly testifies that this would be what the false church of Christ would do. It would force men to follow it or die. Mormons have not and will not ever do it. We do not need the physical sword to force our beliefs on others. We rely only on that burning fire of the Holy Spirit which will testify of truth. Christ said he would stand at the door and knock, if men would invite him in he would feed them. Our missionaries only knock on doors peacfully.
Thanks again. Bye

Dear JC,
I really appreciate your politeness through out our discussion.
You have assumed just a few things about me that I feel are still off. After what I have shared with you, why do you believe I trust with a blind faith? You have assumed that I have not seen the many claims printed against my faith and I will tell you I certainly have.
This is why they do not bother me... Christ my Lord was hated and abused by unbelievers, I know they felt they had good reason for rejecting Him. I know that the true church of Christ will make bold claims and will be hated by all others for them. It's the way it has always been...controversy has always surrounded the true Church. It has always been labeled as "devilish, cultish, and corrupt". I realize its enemies then had their reasons and proof and I realize the enemies today feel they have proof. Usually all the accusations made against us (Mormons) are the very same made against Christ and his original church, doctrine, and people.
JC, The Bible does not forbid judgment. It is what we came to this earth to do. We are here to seek for and hopefully find the kingdom of God on the earth and that requires effort and good judgment.
Of course we dont execute a final judgment on a human, that is not our job and we are to forgive the human failures of others if we want to receive the same from God.
I was asked to give a talk in church on 'judgement' and was given the verse in Matt. as my source. I could not figure out what exactly those verses meant. I struggled, because I knew our life here was to make judgments...righteous judgements about God, right & wrong, etc.
This scripture just would not make sense to me. So I asked God and I told Him that I did not want to say anything over the pulpit that would be untrue. After fretting over this for a few days in a quiet minute alone I was taught by the Spirit what this meant. It was one of the most incredible experiences I have ever had. I read it again and I knew what was meant. He was speaking to His disciples alone. He was preparing them for what was ahead as He was about to send them out to preach His gospel. He was telling them what to say to the unbelieving Pharisees. His message for the Pharisees and the unbelieving was that as they judged Him and His church to be of the Devil, it was actually them who were guilty. Every judgement they made was hypocritical and would be turned back upon their own heads. Everything they accused Him of were the very sins they were most guilty. We are here to judge, it is why we have a brain. We cannot always judge spiritual matters with physical evidences, at least not completely.
Just as you say Mormons are good people, I feel the same about many Christians of differing beliefs. I do not like the Anti Mormons because they are hypocrites and are totally unfair in their judgment. They want to apply conditions and tests to me and my prophets which Christ himself cannot pass.
You mentioned others who have left the Mormon Church claiming that "God talked to them". I have seen the claim a time or two, but when you call them on it they back down and say "well, not literally" as my anti Mormon brother did with me. I know God does not literally tell one person one thing and say the opposite to another.
I knew my witness from God was literal and that's why I knew I could challenge my brothers false claim. He backed down and knew that he could not in good conscience claim to have heard the voice of God when he did not.
A girl here on this site did the same (claimed to have heard from God that JSmith was a false prophet) and I called her on it and she had to admit she was not speaking literally. Any person who claims that God in all reality spoke to them and told them JSmith was a false prophet I know is lying. I have never come across one that was willing to testify to that statement before me, God, and all that is True and Holy as being literal. I will never deny what I heard on that day.
Why so many differing testimonies? I already explained that it is because people tend to confuse "testimony" with "strong belief" and a belief is not testimony. A testimony is what you yourself have personal, real, experience with. The New Testaments are the testimonies of the men and women who saw or heard for themselves God's own voice. They testify that they saw the miracles with their own eyes, they saw the resurrected Christ with their own eyes.
I have read the so called "testimonies" of many anti's, including my brothers. I dont expect all who have been exposed to the truth to continue in it. It didnt happen in Christ's day and it wont happen now. He said they are like dogs who return to their own vomit.
I will look at the web site you posted and I want you to show me the one testimony you found most convincing and the one that has claimed to have heard from the very lips of God himself that JSmith is a liar and a false prophet.
I wouldnt be surprised to find my brothers testimony there on that site. If you knew more about him though you would not trust him for anything. He found fault with the church because he is guilty of some VERY serious sins. (the kind you get arrested for) If the church were true then he would have to change his behavior and it's much easier for him to find fault in it and justify himself. Anybody reading his sob story would only see his side and I know much more of the full picture than what he will ever tell.
I appreciate the conversation JC.
I know Christ lives and He is merciful to those who only want the truth and have no motive to hurt. I hope you realize that as others find fault with JSmith, they have been able to find so little in the many volumes the man compiled in his short life. I hope you take as much time to look for the good as you have taken to find the fault.
You must live in the west if you know very many Mormons, am I right?
Have a good day! Bye.