blind faith

Ok, im not to familiar with any sticks or any thing you mentioned in the previous paragraphs. How ever I do agree with you in the fact that you say taht Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior. Although that I have heard somewhere that the mormon MEN will later turn into gods themselves, or somthing like that. I think it was Briggum Young who said somthing like, """As we are, God once was, And as God is We shall be.""""" Or somthing in that context. But that's besides the point. My main question, is if you guys believe that Jesus Christ started the Catholic Church in the year 32 through St. Peter...You are Peter(Rock) and upon this Rock and shall bulid my church and the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against it....Matthew 16, 18-20.. If you guys do believe that Jesus started the Catholic Church through Peter, then what does it say about Jesus's teachings??????Does it call him a liar???? I think heard that the mormans think the Catholic church went into somthing called an Apostice or somthing like that.....well If the Catholic church did go into Apothice, then what year did it occur in....I don't want an Aproximation, i want an exact year, If you can get me an exact year, then I would like to know where you got your SOLID information.
If you could do that, that would be absoloutly great, im tired of alot of my peers not knowing direct answers to my questions.

Oh yea one more thing, Do the mormons belive that St. John is still here on earth to this day????

Thanks, and God Bless

Dear NBF,
We absolutly do NOT believe that the true church was passed from Peter to the Catholic Church. We believe "the rock" that Christ's church would be built upon was the preisthood of God which was given to Peter.
We believe there was an apostacy shortly after all the apostles died and that wickedness and false doctrines entered the church of God. We believe the priesthood authority was also lost because of wickedness. This time was prophesied by John and many many others. Rev. says that Satan would be allowed to overcome the saints. As far as Matt. stating that the gates of hell would not prevail...They didnt because the true gospel of Christ has been restored and Satan did not prevail in the end.
You ask what year the Catholic Church went into apostacy? It was apostate from the moment of it's conception.
Obviously Constantine taught apostate doctrines and the creeds which came because of him were false doctrines. Constantine was a man who desired power and leadership and he saw power in getting religious people to combine beliefs and agree on one doctrine and stop all the fighting. The Christian church was divided at the time of Constantine and there were many differences in beliefs. It was not just the Pagans who fought with and persecuted Christians, but also the Christian groups who fought amongst themselves. Constantine knew that in order to stand he must enforce some religious order. He gathered the Bishops and had them define God because this point was causing a lot of contention within the varying sects. The Bishops came together and BATTLED it out. They had differing opinions but they were forced to agree. How do you know that truth prevailed? There was no revelation recieved as was in times past so whose to say that the definition they came up with was right? Is debate how the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ is found? We certainly do not believe so.
Constantine murdered his wife...is murder now an acceptable behavior for a saint? He was labeled a saint. Constantine said he had a vision and in it he saw a burning cross and the words "by this conquer". He convinced the people he had the green light to conquer and shed the blood of who ever he wanted to (for God of course)and he and the many who followed him did the same under the the sign of the cross.
Is this the gospel of Christ or men?
What ever happened to preaching the Gospel "meek and mild and harmless as doves"? People through out the time of the Catholic Churches reign from about 300ad until 1800ad felt it perfectly righteous to kill any human who disagreed with their gospel of Christ. After that they felt it perfectly righteous to take the possessions of these murdered souls for themselves and the church.
Can you even number the innocent people murdered by this apostate organization and it's leaders? The numbers have to be in the hundreds of thousands if mot millions! What does a church have to do in order for you to believe it false?
Can I ask you some questions?
Where in the Bible does it say that sins can be forgiven for money?
Where in the Bible does it say to hide the scriptures from the masses?
Where in the Bible does it say that men should not be free to choose which faith they will follow?
Where in the Bible does it say that freedom is dangerous and should not be allowed?
Where in the Bible does it say that you can kill those who refuse to join your church?
Where in the Bible does it say that it is okay to Physically disfigure young boys just so their voices will stay high pitched enough to please the ears of a Pope?
Where in the Bible do you find the doctrine that celibacy(sp?) is more righteous than marriage? Or even acceptable at all?

Is there really any doubt that an apostacy occured?
We believe the apostacy was ended and the second coming of Christ's gospel happened in 1800's. P.S. The last inquisition ended in 1830 the same year the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was organized. Be Back To Finish Later

THE PEOPLE THAT CALLED HIM A GRAVE ROBBER IF I AM NOT MISTAKEN IS THE SAME ONES THAT WENT IN TO NAVOO AND STARTED SHOOTING PEOPLE TO KEEP THEM FROM PRACTING FREEDOM OF RELIGION. SO NATURALY THEY HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING BAD ABOUT HIM TO JUSTIFY THE VIOLANCE AGAINST HIM AND HIS PEOPLE. ON OF THE EALY MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH WAS OFFERED 5 MILLION DOLLARS IF HE WOULD JUST SAY THAT HE DID NOT SEE THE TABLETS. THAT WAS A LOT OF MONEY IN 1800S HE SAID THAT IF HE DID THAT HE WOULD BE TELLING A LIE. HE WAS A MAN THAT WAS KICKED OUT OF THE CHURCH YET HE WOULD NOT SAY HE DID NOT SEE THE TABLETS. THEY HAVE BEEN TRYING TO PROVE THAT THE BOOK OF MORMON IS NOT TRUE FOR A LONG TIME AND HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO. IF YOU WILL LOOK IN THE BOOK OF GEN. IT SAYS LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE. DONT EAT THE FRUIT OF THE TREE UNLESS YOU BECOME LIKE GODS AND KNOW. AND JOHN HIMSELF ASK TO STAY ON EARTH TILL JESUS RETURNED.AND IF I AM NOT MESTAKEN CHRIST GRANTED THAT WISH. THE NAME OF OUR CHURCH IS THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, LAST TIME I CHECKED THERE WAS ONLY ONE CHRIST. LOVE JIM

Your original question was: "how can you people follow a man who was a convicted grave robber and a convicted fortune teller and horse theif?"
First give me your resources to these silly accusations and we'll use some reason and talk about them.
Convicted grave robber? Where is there record of this, what were the exact charges, and when did this supposedly happen?
Convicted fortune teller? When, where, and convicted by whom?
Convicted horse theif? When, where, and whose horse? Why wasnt he hung like all other horse theives?

Was Christ also a grave robber for going in and raising Lazerus? It's probibly what the Pharisees would have said because they hated him.
The Christians of Christ's day were accused of robbing Christ's grave and stealing his body. What makes you believe one side here more than another?
False accusations always follow the true church of Christ.
I'll be waiting to hear the story of Joseph Smith the grave robber according to Non Mormon. I'm sure it will be amusing.

Dear non mormon,
So now he's a money digger and not exactly a grave robber?
JSmith was hired and worked for a man who was looking for a lost spanish treasure in PA. BIG DEAL! He joked that there wasnt much money in it! Where is the sin? JSmith was 20-21 years old in 1826! He was young and in need of a job so he took one. Was taking THIS job an unpardonable sin according to your most righteous judgement if he were really chosen of God?

You say: "Joseph was charged with being a "glass looker"
...GOOD HEAVENS, LET'S BRING OUT THE NOOSE AND HANG EM! EH NON MORMON?
Disorderly because of THAT? Guilty of Jail time according to you for THAT?

This ridiculous accusation/charge is so like what the Jews accused Christ of. They claimed he was learned in the craft of magic, which they claimed he learned while he lived in Egypt. Every good, religious, Jew knows the evils of the Egyptians and their magic so it's no surprise that Jesus was able to do "tricks" and call them miracles.
Disorderly? Isnt that what Christ was crucified for? Charged and technically found guilty, but the Judge in this case said HE HIMSELF saw nothing worthy of punishment and washed his hands of any such punishment.
But the religious men said he was a trouble maker and demanded he pay for that crime. Where would you have been in this scenerio non mormon? You would have said he was guilty of the law, right? Convicted by the law, right?
Is being a "glass looker" (having a Urim and Thummim to translate) a sin worthy of jail time? If he is charged as guilty then so are the prophets in the OTestament because they had it too. Look it up. Are they wicked too then on the same account?

I WANT TO KNOW, WHAT DID JSMITH DO THAT HE CAN HONESTLY AND REASONABLY BE ACCUSED OF BEING DISORDERLY? Or is reason something that is not going to be happening here in this discussion?

You say: "According to court records Justice Neely determined that Joseph was guilty, though no penalty was administered, quite possibly because this was a first offense."
Do you have no reasoning abilities non mormon? Couldn't it be that the Judge had a BRAIN and a CONSCIENCE and could see the ridiculousness of the charge along with the law and threw it out on those grounds?
If the law here is so righteous, flawless and guiltless, and JSmith so unrighteous,full of flaw, and guilty of a real crime, why dont we have this same reasonable law today?
Maybe you could go back to law school and push for such laws and maybe reinstate the law of witch hunts and burnings at the stake too. Do you know how one was determined to be guilty of being a devil or a witch back then? First there was a charge brought forth, evidence was really not necessary but could be proven by the simple "dunking test". Read up on these laws and those convicted! It's as assinine as this one against JSmith!
Is this really the ground your going to stand on non mormon?
You say:"If there is any more needed let me know."
First off, what kind of reference is an anti mormon book going to be to ME????
I want REAL SOURCES of knowledge, not some anti mormon's opinion written in a book.
Where can I find the records of this court case and the conviction of "money digger"? As if this were a crime anyway! You may have proven a charge was issued BUT conviction you have NOT proven. You said "convicted of" and I think that is debatable.
You have failed to prove the rest of your accusations... that of grave robber, horse thief, and fortune teller.

I intend on proving you to be just another false accuser with absolutly no substance to your ridiculous, slanted, unreasonable, accusations.

I can promise you that these anti mormon books you rely on only write the parts of the story they want you to know. They have led you exactly where they want you and have left out all the important reasonable information that would allow an intelligent person to come to a REASONABLE conclusion. Their logic is not sound and their accusations when applied evenly condemn Christ and all other prophets of God.
I'll be waiting for your proof of these silly accusations that you have flung out as truth.

Where are you non mormon? I thought we were going to discuss why Mormons are so ignorant and JSmith so vile? I'm still waiting for the proof of these accusations you have dished to him.

DEAR NM,
YOU SAY MONEY DIGGING IS GRAVE ROBBING? EDUCATE ME, WHERE CAN I READ ABOUT THE SIN OF MONEY DIGGING AND ITS DEFINITION?
YOU SAY:"Im not here to prove anything (you cant prove anything to a Mormon anyway unless its ok'd by the church.)"
ONE THING HAS BEEN PROVEN AND THAT IS THAT YOU NEED TO USE YER NOGGIN BEFORE YOU CLAIM I AINT USIN MINE. YOU CAME HERE TO TRASH MY FAITH AND YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD LAGIT CLAIMS THAT WOULD JUST SHOCK ALL US GULLIBLE MORMONS. AND YOU FOUND OUT THAT IT'S THE ACCUSATIONS AND THE ACCUSERS THAT ARE TOTALLY RIDICULOUS TO ANYONE WITH A BRAIN.
SO WHAT YOUR SAYING IS YOU GET TO COME AND DISH OUT BULL AND PROVE NONE OF IT? IM STILL WAITING FOR YOUR REFERENCES ON THE HORSE THEIF & FORTUNE TELLER CONVICTIONS. AND I STILL REALLY REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT CRIME BEING A "GRAVE ROBBER" IS AND WHY A MAN SHOULD BE JAILED FOR IT?
NM, YOU ASKED SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT SOME THINGS SUCH AS GARMENTS, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW OR ARE YA JUST LOOKING FOR FAULT?
YOU ASK ME TO GO BACK AND ANSWER YOUR EARLIER THREAD BUT I ANSWERED YOUR FIRST THREAD IN DETAIL AND HAD A FEW QUESTIONS OF MY OWN. ARENT YA GOING TO ANSWER MINE BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO DIFFERENT SUBJECTS? IF YOU ANSWERED SOME OTHER POSTER I PROBIBLY DIDNT READ MUCH OF THAT, I TRY TO KEEP TO OUR OWN CONVERSATION.
YOU SAY: "I find Mormonism deceptive and on shakey ground....you people are hellbound, if you dont believe me read the Bible."
WE DO READ THE BIBLE. I ABSOLUTLY LOVE THE BIBLE. IF YOUD READ THE BIBLE YOU WOULD SEE THAT THE ACTIONS OF THOSE WHO HAVE HATED US ARE EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE PHARISEES. WE ARE HATED FOR ALL THE SAME REASONS AS CHRIST AND HIS FOLLOWERS WERE.
DO YA WANT TO KNOW WHAT GARMENTS REPRESENT? THEY REPRESENT THE GARMENTS OF THE SAINTS WHICH HAVE NO BLOOD ON THEM BECAUSE WE HAVE NOT PERSECUTED OTHERS AND WE HAVE KILLED NOBODY'S PROPHETS OR RELIGIOUS LEADERS. WE DO NOT PREACH THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST TO OUR BROTHERS WITH FORCE & MURDER AND OUR GARMENTS ARE WHITE. IF YOU WANT TO READ MORE ABOUT THESE GARMENTS READ REVELATIONS. YOU MOCK US BUT YOU HAVE MOCKED YOUR BIBLE AT THE SAME TIME.
YOU SAY IT IS OUR SECT THAT IS THE CORRUPT ONE BUT WE SIMPLY DO NOT LIVE UP TO ALL THE DEFINING CHARACTERISTICS OF THE FALSE CHURCH SPOKEN OF IN REVELATIONS.
GUESS WHAT? YOUR FOUNDATION DOES. EVERY CHARACTERISTIC OF THE FALSE CHURCH AND ITS BEHAVIOR HAS BEEN LIVED UP TO IN THE TIME WE CALL THE APOSTACY.
YOU CAN PICK AT A NIT HERE AND A GNAT THERE THAT YOU FEEL WE ARE GUILTY OF BUT IT IS NO WHERE NEAR THE CAMEL YOU HAVE TO SWALLOW WHEN YOU CALL YOUR ROOTS CLEANER OR MORE ROCK SOLID THAN MINE.
WHY DONT YOU MAKE A LIST OF ALL THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE FALSE CHURCH AND THE FALSE PROPHETS AND THE ANTI CHRISTS. LIST WHAT MORMONS ARE GUILTY OF.
THEN LIST WHAT CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN GUILTY OF SINCE ITS RE DEFINING IN 300 AD.
THEN***THEN*** ASK YOURSELF IN ALL HONESTY IF YA OUGHT NOT WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT THE MOTE IN OUR EYE.

YOU CLAIM TO BE A GOOD JUDGE OF THE BOM AND ITS CREDIBILITY. HAVE YOU EVER PUT THE BIBLE TO THOSE SAME "CREDIBLE" TESTS?
DO YOU KNOW THE OLD PROVERB "IF YOU ARE OUT TO CONDEMN A MAN, YOU CAN SURELY TRUMP UP A CHARGE?"
IT'S SO TRUE...LOOK FOR FAULT AND YOU WILL FIND IT. IT APPLIES TO THE BIBLE AS WELL AS THE BOM.
YOUR THEORY OF THE SUPPOSED BOOK THE BOM WAS COPIED FROM 25YRS PREVIOUS IS HOGWASH. THERE ARE MANY MORMON DEFENDER SITES THAT CAN AND DO PROVE THAT A LIE UP ONE SIDE AND DOWN THE OTHER. YOU WONT LOOK AT BOTH SIDES BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN FAIR JUDGMENT OR REASON.

BRAINWASHED BEYOND BELIEF?
YOU MEAN TO SAY "I HAVE NO DEFENSE FOR MY SILLY, BASELESS, AND RIDICULOUS ACCUSATIONS SO I WILL EXCUSE MYSELF BEFORE I HEAP MORE COALS UPON MY OWN HEAD."
THEN YOU SWITCH GEARS TO THE "CONSPIRACY THEORY". ANYTHING YOU CANT UNDERSTAND MUST BE OF THE DEVIL OR SOME "HIDDEN" SECRET SOCIETY. HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED HOW SUCH EVIL ROOTS CONSISTANTLY PRODUCES SUCH GOOD FRUIT? MORMONS ARE EDUCATED, HIGH FUNCTIONING MEMBERS OF SOCIETY, HAVE LOVING FAMILIES, AND KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD...WHAT'S TO HATE? IF WHAT IS IN OUR HEADS IS THE MUSH OF FALSE DOCTRINE THEN WOULDNT OUR BEHAVIOR BE WICKED ALSO?
I BELIEVE IT IS YOUR BRAIN THAT HAS BEEN WASHED BY SCARE TACTICS AND OUTLANDISH LIES AGAINST A PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE YOU NO HARM WHAT SO EVER.
REMEMBER THEY CALLED CHRIST A DEVIL TOO TO TRY TO SCARE THE CONGREGATIONS AND KEEP THEM FROM LISTENING. IT'S AN EFFECTIVE TACTIC, IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN.

YOU KNOW NM, THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONCERN AND PRAYERS AND I SAY THAT WITHOUT SARCASM. I KNOW THAT AS LONG AS YOU PRAY FOR ME TO FIND THE TRUTH I AM IN GOOD HANDS. IT WAS BECAUSE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOUSELF THAT I WAS BLESSED TO FIND THE TRUTH OF CHRIST. I KNOW THAT AS MANY TIMES AS YOU PRAY "THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE" GOD WILL CONTINUE TO BLESS THIS CHURCH WITH GROWTH.