False propheices given by a false prophet...

I'll go ahead and start while I have a minute. First I'll talk about your logic here. Your claim is that the Lord must not have actually said it to Joseph Smith because the exact place was named and it didn't happen there.
You must, however admit that a temple was built by that generation, just a different location.
The saints did gather in Missouri and that would have been the place for the temple had it not been for persecutors and murderers(satan). Because of murderers they ran and a new place was appointed.

Christ said that his apostles could cast out devils but when they tried it they were not able to.
Does that mean Christ was a liar? Was he a false prophet?
He said they could and they couldnt.
Later they could but by your strict standard they should have been able to do it when he said they could right??
So has the true God in the past ordered things to be done that were not accomplished in the way, time, or condition that seemed to be clear?
What about Moses and the promised land. They just wandered and wandered and it's no wonder they began to doubt he was a prophet.
You claim that you believe everything written by the apostles to be true.
They said "believers" could pick up snakes and not get bitten. In my state there have been 10 fatal snake bites since they have kept record. 7 of the 10 were evangelists bitten in church.
What's up Idaho? Does this mean the man who wrote this was a false prophet? Does it mean those Christians who handled the snakes had no faith?
Maybe their God is not real?
Or could it simply be they have no understanding of this scripture?
I say they have no understanding..."Serpents" refers to men like yourself who will have no power to shake the saint's testimony of Christ. It has nothing to do with the vipers of the animal kingdom.
You claim it had to be all done before those peolple died? That generation?
How is it Idaho, that the prophecy which Christ himself gave in Matt. 24 passes your standard and Christ's revelation to Joseph fails.
Christ named some things there that would happen within that generation which most believe has not. But he said THAT GENERATION! Read verse 29,30,& 31 and explain when those things happened in THAT GENERATION?
Your strict standard doesnt float does it if Christ can't pass it. How can JSmith possibly pass if Christ, who was perfect, cant?
D&C 84 says thing like "saints to stand on Mount Zion" and "city of New Jerusalem".
Are these physical places or spiritual places or both?
This revelation says "BEGINING at this place." It WAS begun in that place by THAT generation. You yourself said there was a cornerstone placed there!

I forgot to respond to your claiming of Jesus prophecy...he was talking about the new Nation of Israel...that generation has not passed...As a matter of fact his coming is real close at hand...things he have said would happen to that Generation is happening now....Birth pains...Are you ready?

How long is a generation? In the BoM Helaman 13:9,10 we read that the "fourth generation" of Lamanites will destroy the Nephites; and that "four hundred years shall not pass away before" this will happen. In 4Nephi 20-22 we read that "two hundred years" ("from the coming of Christ") had passed away "and the second generation had all passed away save it were a few." Obviously, according to the scripture, a generation can be equated with a century of time. And that even after two centuries there were still "a few" of the second generation still living. Now, in 1832, when Joseph Smith uttered the prophecy of the building of the temple in Missouri, anyone then living AND THEIR CHILDREN would be rightly considered as part of THAT GENERATION. A babe in the womb of a mother in 1832 and any of HIS children would be part of that generation. Do the math, and you will see that incredible as it seems, there are still quite a few people alive today of that generation in which Joseph Smith spoke: consider: a man is born in 1832 and lives well into his eighties, making it c. 1917 when he dies. If he begat upon a younger wife a child in his 82nd or 83rd year, that child would be c. 88 years old today. Given that quite a number of virile old men with multiple wives were alive in the early twentieth century and doing just that very thing, I think you would have to admit that there must be at least dozens if not scores of individuals alive and healthy in old age today whose fathers were either babes in arms or in the wombs of their mothers when Joseph Smith spoke his temple prophecy in 1832. If you will argue for "false prophecies," quoting copiously from the Journal of Discourses, you must allow that these men who emphatically stated that they would one day return to Jackson County MO and build the temple and New Jerusalem might not have been limiting themselves to their frail and aging mortal bodies. What? Do you think that a person ceases to exist upon the death of this clay? If not, then what is to limit Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimbal et al from fulfilling the prophecy in a resurrected body, joining with the Saints now living in the work? The fulfilment of prophecy is not for you nor I to dictate. If it were, and we had been Nephites just prior to Christ's birth, then we likely would have failed in our faith and not been counted worthy to stand with those who kept publicly insisting that Christ would yet be born and the sign of his birth given also: a day and a night and day wherein there would be no darkness (3NephiI). Yet the faithful were tested right up to the very hour of the fulfilment of that prophecy, which seemed to be far overdue: for Samuel the prophet had said in c. 6 BC (Helaman14:2-4) "five years more cometh, and behold, then cometh the Son of God to redeem all those who shall believe on his name." And yet the prophecy was not fulfilled until 1 AD, making it 7 to 8 years after Samuel's words. Talk about a false prophecy! That's why the unbelievers were so angry with the stupid believers, hanging onto their hopeless faith, that they managed somehow to get an *extermination order* signed against them - for disturbing the peace no doubt. But it all came to pass anyway. And so will Joseph Smith's prophecy before the LAST LIVING MORTAL SOUL of THAT GENERATION shall have passed way, as he said. In case you are missing it, the temple in Nauvoo is rebuilt; and to my mind that stands for a sign of just how close the LDS church is to actually building that temple in Jackson County that you are so certain was NEVER BUILT. I suppose that you will remain thoroughly unconvinced by any of this, and therefore I am afraid that nothing short of waiting to see the hand of the Lord to be revealed will convince you; then, like those in the days of Samuel the prophet who finally believed, after falling senseless with fear to the earth, you can come to the elders of the MORMON church and receive baptism.

Your logic still confuses me...it never says childrens children...it says this generation...but even so how many 88 year old men do you have from that generation...track them down..see if they can build it...

You can make it say whatever you want...your the one going against your leaders of your church...because well,mmmm they were there...but you must have a more understanding than they did...what is going to happen then if we use your theory...I would like you to show the generation of childrens children...Like I said before...when Moses wasn't allowed to go that Generation wasn't talking about his children...but please...I still want to see lets see it has been 170 years ago..and if a baby was born...and he had a child..at 88...170-88=82....that baby is getting pretty old...but when this won't happen I suppose you will say...well he ment his childrens childrens children....I am not making that generation up at all the verses are in the bible would like to know the truth...will you open your eyes....what about the other prophecie about 56 years....PLEASE...keep looking

Everything needs reproof....I do not know all..never will...But what the word says...Even your teachers said to reproof the BOM and your teachings...
How easy it is for you to say...We don't use these sayings....Or it is spirit world...or well even he said that he can't do it all...MAN..your talking about your eternal life...don't you want to check these things out....the BIBLE says he words will never change...if the Gospel never changes how can what you teach go against that...I am confused...please teach me how you come to these conclusions and accept telling that the bible is false...What is in the bible that is not true...The teachings are right...do you think that if something might not be ture could be a prophet that admits that he don't know, or uses a seer stone....where is common sense...you throw out every proof against your religion...you do not proove them...because you can't proove them...There is even more prophecies about the Cival War...you claim he got that one right, but he didn't he didn't get it all right...so that makes it wrong...You strain a gnat and swallow a camel...I do not know all the teachings in the Bible, but I am learning the true word of God..not man...My mind is open completely...and pray daily for guidance...I would rather be bold and get the truth out there than let you or anyone go to hell...that is what I would be doing if I didn't post the truth of the history of mormonism...I test all religions by the bible as it says to..that is why JW, Catholic, Nazerene, Baptists, Islam, Muslim, Buddha, Mormon, these are religions...read the bible..what did God do to the way Man took his teachings..like the pharisies...he told them that there teachings were wrong...they took the word and added there manly interpetations...who is right...GOD or man...GOD of course...The teachings do go on with the letters from the apostles...DON'T believe another GOSPEL...plain as can be...What does that mean...well another GOSPEL would be one that was teaching anything different than the word of GOD which does not change...who am I to believe you or GOD...well I believe GOD...these postings are to show the different teachings you teach...I question Catholics also...why they pray to Mary, why does it say Jesus's Brother and sisters in the Bible when they claim she is a virgin forever...that really throws them...they also believe that she was taken up to heaven like Elijah...they put her in place of Jesus...Like Joseph Smith...Jesus went to prepare a place for us...why is that so hard to believe...he did miracles, signs and wonders, there is no teachings from Joseph Smith that I need...Jesus has already told me the way...Please tell me what is the way of the MORMONS to gain salvation? All we have is the written word....our faith, and grace...what else do we need...ceremonies, funny outfits, sounds just like the pharisies...don't you think...

It's not partly right...It's totally right!
Let's talk about D&C 97:1-9
What is Zion? What is The New Jerusalem?
It is the organized church, and the people, and the country, America. Look at what our definitions of these two terms are.

When Christ said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets"...was he talking about the city? No, he was talking about His people. Yet sometimes he is talking about the "plot" of land. In this instance, though, He's talking about the ones who claim to love him but who refuse to recognize the living prophets which he sends to them.
The New Jerusalem are His chosen people in the latter-days (Gentiles).
The New Jerusalem is sometimes the name given to this country which belongs to Him.
"Zion-the city of our God" is the restored Gospel, not just a plot of land.
This "Zion" has not fallen. She has not been moved "out of her place".

Mormonism did not fall...Many false prophets of Joseph Smiths time claimed it would, that God would destroy it now that JSmith was murdered.

Again I will say it was because of murderers that Jackson county (the plot) was not inhabitable at that time. Big deal if we have to wait for peace and freedom of religion to accomplish the literal place part of it.
The "generation" (Mormonism) has not passed away and wont before the literal part of this be fulfilled! Watch and see!

D&C 107 is even more discriptive and plain to see that it is the Restored Gospel and the Saints that would not fall even if they WERE SCATTERED. They that remain(in the faith) are the pure in heart. Inheritances=promises of Abraham. (GOSPEL).
Building up waste places=bringing people into the Gospel through missionary work. That has been and is being fulfilled.
Prophets fulfilled= all scriptures of old fulfilled
No other place appointed= No other Gospel has authority to preach in His Name but this one. This for the work of the gathering of the saints.

This prophecy is totally a fulfilled prophecy. You can think what you want and trifle with words and interpret them for yourself but if you do it you have relied on your own mind, the mind of a man.
We have every right to define our God, Jesus Christ's words here. It's our scripture.

Just because some of our own did not totally understand these words and took them too literal at that time, it is no reason to fault the word of God. Else the Apostles of Christ's day must also be condemned on the same grounds. They, many times, did not understand his words nor his symbolisms. Neither did his enemies.
Is this the second example you pose? Or just more writings on the first?

PLEASE TRY TO KEEP IT SHORTER IDAHO. I dont have the kind of time you must have.

Whether it's the 1st or 2nd, it's been defended and stands.
It's not a false prophecy or even a strange situation when compared to the Old and New Testaments.

JUDGE THIS GOSPEL AND IT'S PROPHET WITH THE SAME MEASURE AND IT PASSES.

You go on and on with quotes but JSmith is the one on trial, so do me a favor and quote only him. I do not have time to dicker about every word recorded or every Mormon person's opinion at that time.

Apology accepted - and I wasn't even fishing for one. You seem to possess the zeal of fresh conversion. That is good. Whenever I feel zealous in the faith I feel that all is right with my life, even though my "thorns in the flesh" still bedevil me. They won't go away, and like Paul I am left to continue the race feeling handicapped or maimed. But if I didn't have my own thorns in the flesh then I wouldn't be humbled by my weaknesses. The B of M teaches that very well: "I (the Lord) give unto men weaknesses that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them." (page 510 verse 27) In other words: in his own due time the Lord will heal us, take away the thorns embeded in our souls, and make us new creatures, with changed hearts that will never again desire to sin. But the main point here is: this healing through his atonement comes to each individual in the Lord's wisdom and timing, not our own. I love the doctrine of the gospel. It is truth. The Bible, as you said before, contains the truth. Our only "complaint" with the Bible is that it is OLD and very tampered with and parts and plain doctrine have been taken out of it or lost. What we have left is nevertheless of incalculable value: look how the Bible has shaped the world and made mankind better for reading and believing in its message. No question: God gave us that collection of books containing his word. But within that collection are many questions and not as many answers. Our position as a church is that questions today are answered the same way as always: God gives us answers to our sincere prayers. He has never left a sincere seeker of truth unanswered, even though the answers may take a life time. I love this quote from Harold B. Lee (the president of our church in 1972-73): "Testimony is as elusive as a moonbeam; it's as fragile as an orchid; you have to recapture it every morning of your life. You have to hold on by study, and by faith, and by prayer. If you allow yourself to be angry, if you allow yourself to get into the wrong kind of company, you listen to the wrong kind of stories, you are studying the wrong kind of subjects, you are engaging in sinful practices, there is nothing that will be more deadening as to take away the Spirit of the Lord from you until it will be as though you had walked from a lighted room when you go out of this building, as though you had gone out into a darkness. That which you possess today in testimony will not be yours tomorrow unless you do something about it. Your testimony is either going to increase or it is going to diminish, depending on you. Will you remember your responsibility then? the Lord said: 'If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself' (John 7:17). No truly converted (Christian) can be immoral. No truly converted (Christian) can be dishonest, nor lie, nor steal. That means that one may have a testimony as of today, but when he stoops to do things that contradict the laws of God, it is because he has lost his testimony and he has to fight to regain it again. Testimony isn't something that you have today and you keep always. Testimony is either going to grow and grow to brightness of certainty, or it is going to diminish to nothingness, depending upon what we do about it. I say, the testimony that we recapture day by day is the thing that saves us from the pitfalls of the adversary." This goes right along with faith producing works. It is a living, repetitive cycle that should last throughout life: anyone who thinks he is allowed to confess Jesus Christ and make the claim that he has let Jesus into his heart, and that this singular event is the sum of being saved in the kingdom of God, is greatly mistaken and will fail. We prove ourselves disciples of Christ each day, hour, and moment, as you have confessed.

Where to begin - first a clarification on the J of D and D & C: the source is the very same, WHEN the Spirit was speaking through Joseph Smith and his successors. Most of the D&C is bonafide scripture. But not all in the J of D is inspired writing; and quite a few passages are weird stuff for sure - eg. the "Adam/God" theory got it's impetus from things said in sermons back then. Jospeh Smith never taught that Adam is God the Father: he taught that Adam is the first fleshly man and a son of God as we all are: but the FIRST MAN is not the same as God's FIRST-BORN son in the flesh ie. Jesus Christ, and certainly NOT God the Father born in the flesh. Adam, according to mormon theology, is a GOD; he was called Michael before his birth, the same the Christian world at large recognizes as Michael the Archangel (a lot of what Joseph Smith revealed in his teachings is familiar stuff to Christians, except he clarified a lot that wasn't well known or understood anymore). Adam, again according to mormon theology, is now a resurrected being, celestialized, and lives with God our Father in his Celestial kingdom, never to go out. He is a GOD in the same manner that all of Father's children can become GODS: and before you holler "Blasphemy!" just consider the logic, which in no way is disputed in the Bible: (1John3:2)"Beloved now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." Why would we be refered to as the sons and daughters of God (2Corinthians6:18) or his offspring (Acts17:29), and why would he be called Father, not just by Christ but by everyone? And if we are children of the only ONE TRUE GOD whom we worship, and through Christ we are saved to return into his presence forever, then why would we be incapable of becoming LIKE him? Consider perhaps the most to-the-point passage in the New Testament on this topic: Revelations 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God and he shall be my son." There are those who will wrestle with this plainness to their own confusion and say that somehow this is a reference to Christ becoming one with God after overcoming all things. But this is clearly not so, even without recourse to the "modern" scriptures in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The verse is preceded by: "And he (the angelic visitor which brought the apostle John the revelation) said unto me (John): . . .I (speaking as though he were Christ)am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." Clearly, from these two verses alone, we are intended to overcome all things through Christ, and inherit ALL THINGS. Who will temporize with this? And here is a good example of WHY the D&C and Book of Mormon are essential in the latter-days: D&C84:36-38 "For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth my Father; and he that receiveth my father receiveth my Father's kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him." See how much more plain the meaning is now? It clarifies the Bible passages and removes all misunderstanding. We call the B of M the "cornerstone" of our religion. Joseph Smtih said "It is the most correct of any book on earth, and that a man can get closer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book." He would know! There has never been a Bible scholar to equal Joseph Smith. He restored many passages in the Bible, and was working on refreshing the entire King James version when he was killed. The B of M is absolutely crammed with doctrinal things which make the Bible passages more clear, or reveal things lost from the Bible altogether: eg. the doctrine of premortal existence of the soul, the fact that we had agency to choose there as well as here in the mortal world - a single passage is all there is, but it is so clear that the entire doctrine of premortal existence is rendered fully: page 241 verses 2,3 "And those priests (citing early Biblical times) were ordained after the order of his Son, in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look forward to his Son for redemption. And this is the manner after which they were ordained - being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such." In other words, before they were born, those who receive the priesthood in mortality were chosen to receive it because of their faith and works; and through faithful exercise of the priesthood will receive redemption through Christ, whose priesthood order it is that they hold (remember how he laid his hands upon his apostles and set them apart for the work of the ministry; he gave them his priesthood authority as the Bible makes abundantly clear). They chose good (followed Christ and not Satan's side which warred against God in heaven) and then were chosen before they were born to receive his priesthood in this life. Joseph Smith clarified further (and elsewhere) that all who receive the priesthood of God in this life held it in the spirit realm before birth. Another doctrine that remains unclear in the Bible is the state of those who die and are resurrected. The B of M really clarifies this, for example: pages 236-7:40-45 "And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else. Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works. Now, there is a death which is called a temporal death; and the death of Christ shall loose the bands of this temporal death, that all shall be raised from this temporal death. The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt. Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether the be evil." Within this passage is another doctrine: the plurality of the Godhead. If we were left with this passage alone, we would be just as much in the dark concerning the TRINITY as the religious world is today. But it was well understood by Joseph Smith from the first that God and Christ are two distinct beings, impossible to tell apart otherwise. The Bible makes this abundantly clear to a "mormon" reader: would Christ pray to himself in Gethsemane, would he "throw his voice" so that John the Baptist hears the Father say "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased", would Christ ask himself to receive himself as he gave up the ghost? This was a tremendous argument for a long time during the conferences convened at Nicea and elsewhere in the early days of the catholic church. They created the CREED by which Christianity has been confused ever since. It is not Biblical, and the B of M makes this very clear, almost as though Christ himself (with foreknowledge) deliberately established the clarity of a separation of Godhead beings and yet their oneness of purpose. When He visited the people of the America's after his resurrection, he commaned them to pray, and while they were praying to him, he (pages 445,6:19-22) "...departed out of the midst of them and went a little way off from them and bowed himself to the earth, and he said: Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen; and it is because of their belief in me that I have chosen them out of the world. Father, I pray thee that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words. Father, thou hast given them the Holy Ghost because they believe in me; and thou seest that they believe in me because thou hearest them, and they pray unto me; and they pray unto me because I am with them." What a clarifier! Here we get the whole doctrine from Christ himself: in virtually every other passage in the B of M, and in the D&C, (and the "Testimony of the Three Witnesses" etc.) we have a passage which reads something close to "the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, which is (are) one God." But Joseph Smith's own vision from the Godhead to open this dispensation, and this passage of Christ praying to his Father in the B of M show that the complete doctrine (not to forget common sense) is revealed to be a separate trinity of Gods, three individuals, but one in purpose as though they were a single ego. No division here, no not even a shade of difference in purpose: thus "I and my Father are One." And by understanding that the Godhead is three united individuals we are led directly to the doctrine of GODS, and the fact that we can become gods ourselves - "receive all the Father hath." ALL means everything: all his creative powers, his understanding, his knowledge, his joy. Will any of us ever have any other God that we pray to? No, never. The B of M people only pray to Christ if he is physically present: even the angel which looked like the risen Lord could not allow John to pray to him, but said "I am thy fellowservant and of the brethren." (Revelations22:9) It is evidence from the Bible that resurrected beings look as glorious as God himself to our quickened eyes, and that they are our fellowservants in the ministry, as we try to be, but beyond description really as to glory. The Christian world at large views the mormon doctrine of becoming gods as the highest heresy, because they don't understand it, and because too many mormons have made things worse be acting smug if not outright prideful in the knowledge we have or our purpose here and our potential. The simple fact is that EVERYONE born here is equally a son or daughter of God the Father, Christ himself being his FIRSTBORN and only begotten in the flesh; the only one of all God's children who was God enough in the premortal realm to take upon himself the task of redeeming all creation from the fall; which fall was necessary to give us the time and place to learn how to choose the good over evil always. But the terrible risk was that we would be cut off from the presence of his God and ours; only he could bring us back. It's all there, in even greater clarity in the B of M (see page57:5-7; page59:26; pages178,9:1-13). In fact, the central message of the B of M is the doctrine of Christ as Redeemer and Lord. "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" was added to the title, to make this perfectly clear to the world. And as the Bible comes under even heavier attack, the Book of Mormon will arrive finally as the foundation to bolster Christian faith in the Bible. Two witnesses are stronger to the weak faith of those who are still questioning the reality of Christ as Lord and Savior. And I tell you, the time will come when other witnesses of ancient scripture will also be revealed to the world, and no one will be left with any excuse for not believing. But if we can believe now, our glory will be the greater for having increasing faith in a world that gets harder to live righteously in.

That was my posting, bringing up the "mathematical" generation, as proposed by McConckie in "Mormon Doctrine." Actually, I prefer your point of view. I only threw out McConkie's version of "this generation" to show yet another way of looking at the meaning, one which McConckie baffled me with oh so many years ago, and yet it does possess a certain logic too.

You said you wanted references when i say Christ said a thing so here's a few on this topic.

JN.7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Matt.10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for MY NAME'S sake:

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the SON OF MAN'S sake.