Mormonism Christian?

Hello, this is Casey. I will do my best to reply to your post and hopefully clear up any misunderstandings of my points that I was attempting to make in light of holy scripture. Everything I said in my previous post was in context, as I will demonstrate with scripture, and will answer your comments in order [ideally]. The reason I made statements such as the Trinity is supported by the Bible--and did not give many scriptural references is simply because if I wrote out on each topic in my above post, it would have greatly increased the length...but if that is what is necessary to prove Christianity, and show Mormonism for what it is...a polytheistic, religious movement that began in the 1830's which denies what Jesus and the apostles taught emphatically throughout their ministries.

The Trinity is supported in the Bible. First of all, it is important that we define the historic doctrine of the Trinity: Within the one being that is God, there eternally exists three co-equal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. First of all, why bother bringing this up? That is a good question! Jesus made it very plain in John 17:3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." We see clearly from this verse that one must have a clear understanding of the one true God, and his Son [God in human flesh--verses given later]. If you have the wrong God, he cannot save you from your sin--it is as simple as that. Now on to the Biblical support for the holy doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible teaches that there is only one God. This is seen in what every Jew knows as the Shema...Deuteronomy 6:4: "Shema Israel Yahweh Eloheno Yahweh Ehad" which means simply "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." Every morning the Orthodox Jews would wake up and recite this verse, being the core of their theology that there is only one God. Jesus confirmed this doctrine of monotheism in Mark 12:28-29: "And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord." ...Jesus then continues on to what this gospel and the other gospels record as loving God, and loving people. Isaiah 43:10 says: "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isaiah 44:6 says: "Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:8 says: "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Throughout Isaiah, and the rest of the Old Testament, God emphatically states that there is only one God. There were no gods before Him, none after Him. There are no gods that He knows of! God does not have gods to the left of Him, to the right of Him, below Him, or above Him. If it was anyone else but God speaking, you would almost accuse Him of redundancy. I am not familiar with which specific passages of scripture you are referring to in Genesis about other gods in heaven...but I would like to draw to the attention of Genesis 1:26-27: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Allow me to point out the simple fact of how God chose to reveal himself in scripture here in this book of Genesis, chapter 1. First God says in vs 26, “...Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...” to the immediate change in the next verse to: “So God created man in his own image.” [Plural--3 Personages, to Singular--1 God]. A common misconception of the Trinity is that the doctrine is believed to state that the Father and Son and the Holy Ghost are the same personage. The Trinity does not say this at all!--in fact that heresy has already been dealt with. Christians recognize that the Father is not the Son, and that the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and that the Holy Ghost is not the Father...and so on. However, because a derivative concept from John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth,” is that God is a spirit, or as the Greek more clearly says: “God is spirit;” and a derivative concept from Luke chapter 24:36-39: “And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have,” is that spirits do not have bodies of flesh and bones and the disciples saw that Jesus had. [Also, in the Greek, the 1st use of the word ‘spirit’ (literally: ‘a spirit’) in vs 37, is not any different than the word ‘spirit’ (literally: ‘a spirit’) in vs 39, in fact the grammar for the word are exactly the same...they are of equal significance]. The Trinity is not saying that three persons with three physical bodies are being crammed into one physical body...for God is spirit, and spirit hath not flesh and bone. The context is clear on this; Greek scholars need not debate over such a simple truth [not that I am a Greek scholar, just have useful tools]. The Trinity, rather are 3 distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in the one being of God. This is more than just in complete agreement, although they are in complete agreement and fellowship with one another. Recognizing emphatically one God in Jewish monotheism, that Jesus confirmed...and also recognizing that in the New Testament the Father is called God, the Son is called God, and Holy Ghost is called God--Yahweh...I AM.

The Father is called God: 2 Thessalonians 1:2: “Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” [If more verses are needed to show the Father is God, please request it, and I will gladly provide them].

The Son is God: John 1:1-3, 14: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” [For a greater context, please read all of John 1]. John 20:28: “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and My God.” [This profession was made towards Jesus, who after being called and worshiped as God, accepted the worship and encouraged him]. In Exodus 3:13-14: “And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.” I would like to parallel John 8:24, John 8:58 with Exodus 3:13-14. Keep in mind that the Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament that Jesus would be quoting from in the passages of John 8:24, and John 8:58. John 8:24 reads: “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” [the ‘he’ is not really there in the Greek. It is an interpolation to better the sentence fluency. The verse in the Greek reads, “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.”] John 8:58 says: “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.” The next vs shows the instantaneous reaction of the Jews... “Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.” Jesus quotes numerous times in John, “ego eimi,” or in English, “I AM.” The Jews reaction was to stone him for blasphemy for they knew Jesus was calling himself God in human flesh. But it gets clearer in John 10:30-33: “I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” I would like to clarify that in vs 30 of John chapter 10, Jesus is saying that He is in one purpose with the Father, which all of John 8-10 being in the one sitting drive the Jews ballistic, and cause another hasty course of actions by the Jews who explain they understand what Jesus is saying, “...that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” The Jews understood perfectly what Jesus was saying--Jesus already applied God’s true name to himself, now he was saying that he was one with the Father, in purpose [not that he was the Father, just the one being of God equal with the Father]. The Messianic prophecies of who Jesus was supposed to be, explain that Jesus is God in human flesh also. Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” I would like to cross reference this verse with Matthew 1:23: “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” Isaiah 9:6-7: “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.” Micah 5:2 says of when Messiah was to come from: But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Hebrews 1:8: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.” [Here we see the Father, calling the Son God]. Colossians 2:9: “For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” [referring to the Son]. The Holy Ghost is God. Acts 5:3-4: “But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.” The Bible in this verse equates lying to the Holy Ghost as lying to God. In 2 Corinthians 3:17: “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.” Keep in mind that in verse 16 of chapter 3 of 2 Corinthians, Paul was quoting from the Old Testament, and referring “Lord” to the Old Covenantal usage of the word “LORD” or “Yahweh” -- the one true God. The Trinity is not unfathomable as some presume, even as some Christians presume. Rather, I believe that everything that God has revealed in Scripture, he desires us to know...including how He chooses to exist. We do not know how God manages to exist the way He does, we just know that is how He chooses to exist. If any other questions regarding the accuracy of the Trinity, please do not hesitate to ask, or to raise objections. I will gladly do my best to answer all concerns.

I believe the only other topic I have not replied to at this point is about how we know what the truth is...at least around that subject matter. Let’s ask the question, What is truth? Jesus answered that for us in John 17:17: “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” Jesus was referring to the Old Testament, or the Hebrew Bible as scripture [as well as his teachings, and the teachings of the not yet arisen apostles]. Prayer is never a test to decipher truth. In fact in 1 Thessalonians 5:21: “Prove all things, hold fast that which is good;” or as the Greek says it, “Test all things...”. James 1:5 is often used out of context by Latter Day Saint members. James 1:5: “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” This is used out of context oftentimes to mean that whenever you need to know what the truth on something is, pray about it--determine how you feel about something. Let’s suppose I asked you to dishonor your parents. Would you need to pray about whether you need to do that or not? The correct answer is no, you would not need to pray about it because God already told us to “honor your father and mother,”...Exodus 20:12. No matter how much you feel that you have the right to dishonor your parents, objective truth revealed in holy scripture already condemned that course of action. I am not trying to minimize prayer, for in the same chapter of 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul encourages the believers in Thessalonica to “pray continually.” My point is just this...Jeremiah 17:9: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Our hearts are deceitful above all else. This means we can deceive even ourselves, and be deceived by others, even other spirits! Do not test by prayer, but by God’s test of a thorough investigation of holy scripture. What is truth? God’s word is truth, and the church are the pillars who hold it up.

Most importantly, I want all those who are LDS to know that I love you, and I am not writing this as an attack against you personally. I attack the theology, not the people. I am commanded to “earnestly contend for the faith, which was once for all delivered unto the Saints” [Jude 3]. I hope you care about the truth enough to test everything I’ve said. I love you, but remember, if you have a false God, or Jesus Christ, He can’t save you. God bless you.

If you would like to email me: PizzaTheHut1@hotmail.com

Casey

A Response to 'Just Passin' Thru':

Hello, this is Casey. This is a response to what you said in your 2nd reply to my last Post. I will do my best to answer everything you mentioned in your previous post. I will be quoting from your post dated 8/9/2002 4:15pm, then responding to it systematically in light of Holy Scripture. I will not be giving my opinion on passages but letting God speak for himself as 2 Timothy 3:16 says: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness," and God also says in Matthew 22:31-32: "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." [In Matthew 22:31-32, Jesus equates the reading of scripture as God speaking directly to the audience, and also to us today...then quotes an Old Testament Passage]. I encourage those reading this reply to do as the Bereans did in Acts 17:11: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." The Bereans were considered "more noble" because rather than believing what Paul the Apostle said as truth, they tested it by the scriptures to see if what he said lined up with what was truth...John 17:17: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." And my prayer for you reading this is, in the words of Brigham Young, "Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test," [Journal of Discourses, Volume 16, Page 46, 1873]. And now, on to my response...

You said, "In simple terms (and it is hardly more complex than this anyway): God the Father, God Jesus Christ the Son, God the Holy Ghost (Spirit)." You were referring to your view of the Godhead. The way you stated your view of the doctrine of the Godhead according to the Latter-day Saint Church is misleading to one not knowing what the official LDS Church doctrine states. The ancient usage of the Trinity uses the phrase: “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.” The word God derives from YHWH...Yahweh. Within Mormonism, Elohim is referred to as the Father, and Jehovah is referred to as the Son. However, the word Jehovah actually derives from YHWH...Yahweh; Elohim is a plural name used for the one God, but Yahweh is the exclusively used name for only the one true God. Whenever Jesus calls himself, the great “I AM” [scriptural references in my previous post], he is not just saying he is Jehovah God or the God of the Old Testament as Mormonism teaches, he is saying, “I AM” the one and only God...Yahweh [by definition meaning “the only God”]. Any Hebrew and Greek scholar knows this...Mormon scholars know this; but Mormon scholars do not want to let this information out. The Father is referred to as Yahweh, the Son is referred to as Yahweh, and the Holy Ghost is referred to as Yahweh. There is no getting around it, all 3 persons in the Trinity are the one and only God--not just in purpose like LDS doctrine says, but rather one undivided substance with each other. So for you to use it in describing your form of the godhead is not proper and not giving a clear picture to what your church actually teaches. LDS Church Doctrine believes rather as Joseph F. Smith puts it in “Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith”: “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods." This is a more clear demonstration of LDS Church doctrine in the Godhead...as you later state that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are 3 distinct “beings.”

You also said regarding the godhead, “The doctrine of One God is simply: one Godhead in purpose, but three distinct, individual beings; not some weird, incomprehensible doctrine of three personnas within the same single spiritual body. From what you said (and I have heard it every time a sectarian of catholic tries to expound the doctrine of the trinity), this is supposed to be the case: and yet every time we *Mormons* bring up the obvious dichotomy - of Christ “throwing his voice” at his own baptism (while the Holy Ghost somehow also manages to put in a separate appearance) and “praying to himself” at Gethsemane and sending an angle “to himself” to strengthen himself - we are either ignored or else accused of making all this up: this “dichotomy” is all patent nonsense when viewed from within the doctrine of the trinity: but it makes perfect sense to *Mormons* who understand that God the Father was present at both the baptism and suffering of his Son, as was the Holy Spirit.” First of all let me say that I am glad you raised these objections, and that I intend to not “ignore” these apparent contradictions with the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as others may have done in the past. Let me begin by responding to a common misconception of the Trinity that the Father is the Son, or that the Son is the Holy Ghost, or that the Holy Ghost is the Father and so on...this is not the Trinity [this was also stated in my previous post--for more information, please refer to that]. You have a good point though, if the doctrine of the Trinity states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the same personage/person, then you are absolutely right that Jesus would have been throwing his voice at his baptism, and making a sort of visual effects studio by having the Holy Ghost float down like a dove. This scene occurred at Jesus baptism in Matthew 3:16: “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.” The first thing the Trinity recognizes is that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate, distinct persons/personages. What the Trinity does not accept is that the 3 persons are 3 separate beings/gods. The Bible emphatically states that there is only one God [for more information, please refer to my previous post in which I used scripture to back this point up]. The core of Judaism is monotheism...the belief in one God. The core of Christianity is the same theme...monotheism. Mormons separate themselves from Christians by stating that there is more than one god...polytheism.

You said, “Even modern *Mormon* scripture teaches the same phrase ‘Father, Son, and Holy Ghost which is one God.’ this is used in many instances: and yet we do not believe in the trinity of one body with three personalities or manifestations or identities.” [For a more correct view of the LDS view on the Godhead, please refer above in this post to the 2nd paragraph]. The word “manifestation” is a heretical word to use in describing the Trinity. I know you probably meant nothing intentionally offensive by it, however, the word implies a heresy that has been dealt with throughout the centuries called: Sebellianism, Modalism, Oneness theology, which was first rejected in the 3rd century. This heresy [with a few names] teaches the clear falsity that the Father is the Son, and that the Son is the Holy Ghost and so on. The word “manifestation” is a commonly used word by Modalists who would say that God is one person who “manifests” himself as three different persons, sort of like going into a closet and changing clothes, or putting on different masks. Modalists would say regarding their belief in their god: “Our God was Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Ghost in regeneration.” They reject the clear view of scripture of the distinction between the three persons existing at the same time. The Trinity however does not take the heretic view of many gods...specifically that the 3 persons of the godhead are 3 gods/beings--Tritheism.

You said, “Where we part company with most of Christendom is on the doctrine of “Godhead,” which we believe, and the “trinity,” which is a philosophical creation of the early catholic fathers at Nicea. It is incomprehensible, therefore it is false doctrine; for God does not reveal incomprehensible doctrines to his children: The Spirit teaches us all that we should know or do.” First of all, allow me to say that I am not apart of the apostate Church of Rome [Roman Catholic Church]. I am a born-again Christian, and I follow Christ, not an institution set up by man, and contains many heresies, most importantly--how man gets reconciled to God. The Church of Rome accepts the Galatian heresy regurgitated [as does the Latter-day Saint Church] by teaching that man is able to come to God on his own will and deeds. Within Roman Catholicism, man is made right with God after a life-long process, not a moment in time where man stands justified as the Bible teaches [Romans 5:1]. The Catholic Church believes in Purgatory after death, which cleanses man from his sin that Christ couldn’t accomplish...which is unbiblical. The Church of Rome also teaches that through the Eucharist, man receives a sort of weekly dose of Christ’s atonement again [Transubstantiation]. So, I hope I make myself clear that I am not apart of the apostate Church of Rome in any way--I am simply a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ and the doctrines of the Apostles found in the Bible. I would like to clear up the misconception that the Trinity was created/invented at the Council of Nicea. It is first important to note that in all the Christian creeds, whenever the word “Catholic” is used, the term means “Universal.” So the early Christian Church would have considered themselves “Catholics,” meaning, they are apart of the Universal Church. When the Roman Government took over the Church around the 5th century and onward, we begin to see a separation from Biblical theology into a series of pagan rituals that attempt to reconcile man with God. While the Council of Nicea does contain the first published declaration of the doctrine of the Trinity, Christians always recognized the Triune Nature of God. The following early church leaders/writings all defended the doctrine of the Trinity long before A.D. 300: Clement, the third bishop of Rome in A.D. 96; The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, the “Didache” in A.D. 90-100; Ignatius, bishop of Antioch in A.D. 90; Justin Martyr the great Christian writer in A.D. 155?; Theophilus, the sixth bishop of Antioch in A.D. 168; Athenagoras, a theologian in A.D. 177; Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons in A.D. 180; Tertullian, early church leader in A.D. 197; and Gregory Thaumaturgus, an early church leader in A.D. 264. I do not mean to minimize the importance of the great council at Nicea, I just want to demonstrate that history shows Christians always believed in the Triune nature of God: One God; Father, Son, Holy Ghost are the 3 persons within the one being of God. We finally get to the council of Nicea on June 19, 325 A.D. Around 300 bishops, almost all from the Eastern portion of the Roman empire, met and considered the issue of the deity of Christ. Finally the view was put to paper, not only to define the Triune Nature of God, but to defend against heresies occurring in the day [please ask me if you would like more information regarding these heresies occurring during the days of the 4th century]. A brief look at history shows that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was not thought up at the council of Nicea, but rather men putting to paper what Christians have always believed. The Nicean council upheld the views of the Bible, and concluded that the use of Biblical terminology is of no use if the meaning of the scriptures is lost--that’s why the Creed was published...to defend the correct view of the nature of God. [For more information regarding Church history, the Nicene Creed, or the Church fathers, heresies of the first few centuries, please request from me, and I will gladly provide it. If you would like more Biblical references to the Trinity, please refer to my previous post]. Finally regarding the above quoted comment you made, I would like to respond to the idea that the Trinity is “incomprehensible.” God clearly portrays himself as the only God...none before him, none after him; the one and only. He also says that the Father is God, the Son is that same God, and the Holy Ghost is that same God. The conclusion is the doctrine of the Holy Trinity [the Trinity is defined in my previous post]. Although other people, including Catholics, or even other Christians may believe the Trinity is incomprehensible, I firmly disagree with them. I am not able to understand how God manages to exist the way He does, He simply tells us that is how he does it. The idea that if you do not fully understand something in the Bible therefore makes it a false doctrine is also an erring idea. For example, the Bible speaks of God taking no pleasure in the death of the wicked, yet at the same time God rejoices every time sinners repent toward Himself. It is safe to say that wicked people are dying almost constantly, and that people are repenting towards God almost constantly. How can God feel both mourning/sadness and rejoicing/gladness at the same time? God already told us in Isaiah 40:13: “Who hath directed the spirit [mind] of the Lord, or being his counselor hath taught him?” The answer is: no one knows the mind of the Lord. My point is, simply because we do not fully understand something about God, does not mean we make an idea what we want simply because we do not understand. The fact is, there is no where in the Bible where more than one true God is mentioned.

You said, “You quoted the Genesis passage: ‘let us make man in our image;’ and also in Gen3:22 we read ‘Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil:’ proving that God is not alone in heaven after the creation (Or is he talking with himself?)” Allow me to point out the simple fact of how God chose to reveal himself in scripture here in this book of Genesis, chapter 1. First God says in vs. 26, “...Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...” to the immediate change in the next verse to: “So GOD created man in HIS OWN image.” The change went from plural--3 persons, to singular--1 God. Genesis 3:22-24 is even clearer than Genesis 1:26-27. We read in Genesis 3:22-24: “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man: and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.” In vs. 22 of Genesis chapter 3 God says: “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US...” and in vs. 23: “Therefore the Lord God sent him...” and in vs. 24: “So HE drove out the man: and HE placed...” Again, a wonderful demonstration of the Trinity, even clearer than I saw in Genesis chapter 1. We have in Genesis 3:22 and 3:23 the use of the words “Lord God” which are applied plural, then singular, and finally as “he” in vs. 24 of Genesis chapter 3. [On whether God was talking with himself, refer above in this post dealing with the subject].

You said, “The Father is the literal father of the earthly body of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35 “...The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”; the Holy Ghost first came upon Mary so that she could endure the presence of God, then “power of the Highest” overshadowed her: Mormons understand this to mean literal intercourse, though not necessarily in the same physical sense as we know it as mortals (after all, Mary was still proclaimed a virgin by the angel to Joseph Matt1:23).” I will let Brigham Young speak for me on the subject of Jesus being conceived by sexual intercourse between heavenly Father and Mary... “What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, as begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven...I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now, remember that this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost” [Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, Page 51, April 9, 1852]. Brigham also said: “When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in Heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve;” [Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, Page 50, April 9, 1852]. Young says also, “The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers” [Journal of Discourses, Volume 8, Page 115, 1860]. It is very clear that the LDS Church teaches that Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Ghost, even though you quoted Luke 1:35, which in the Greek says that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost. God says Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost, Brigham Young said he was not. You have a choice to make...believe what God said in the Bible, or what a man who claimed to be a prophet said [who evidently fails the test of a prophet in Deuteronomy 13 and fails the warning in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 by leading people after another God and savior]. As I have already showed in my previous two posts, in John 4:24 and Luke 24:36-39, derivatives from those passages are that “God is a spirit,” and “spirit hath not flesh and bone.” In other words, God is not a big man as Joseph Smith made him out to be... “I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret” [Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, Page 3, 1844]. God says in the Bible that he is not a man, but is rather spirit and does not have flesh and bone. Joseph Smith said the opposite, that God is a man like us with flesh and bone. So here is another choice...believe what God said, or believe Joseph Smith Jr. who says contrary to holy scripture.

You said, “Christ - the Word - created the earth under the direction of his Father (John5:19 ‘...Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do;’): who is the same Father of each of us (all of us - including Christ and Satan - are his literal, spirit offspring).” The Mormon Church has a common misunderstanding and misuse of Acts 17:29 which says, “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.” What the Latter-day Saint Church may not know is that what Paul is doing here is quoting from two pagan sources: Epimenides of Crete and Aratus of Cilicia. Both of these are non-Christian sources...pagan, but Paul quotes them to relate to them the message of the Gospel in a way they will better understand. If Jesus came today to preach the gospel instead of 2 millennia ago, and Paul the Apostle followed shortly after him, Paul may quote from Mark Twain, or George W. Bush to make his point, while using scripture as well. Similar to the fact if Gordon B. Hinckley
quotes a passage from the Qu’ran, the Qu’ran is not considered scripture. What Paul was saying there was, “But as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” [John 1:12]. Also take into consideration the fact that Jesus was not only fully God, but fully man...1 Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” And the Word [Jesus] was “made flesh,” [John1:14]. Philippians 2:5-8: “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” Remember, Jesus created all things [which I will show later with scripture], and was equal with God: “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” [John 5:18]. The Jews knew what it meant to be equal with God...it meant to be God in human flesh [not a God; but rather Yahweh...the one and only true God]. Because Jesus humbled himself, only then could he say, “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you, If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” Jesus, humbled himself and became a man, that is why he prayed to His Father, and why he was “less”. Jesus never ceased to be fully God in any way--in fact he boasted about himself being the one true God so often the Jews on a regular basis tried to kill him and stone him.

You said, “The doctrine again is simple and unites all Biblical passages: God the Father of Christ is above Christ, as his Father is above him, and so on throughout all eternity. Thus when Christ/Jehovah/God says he knows of no others gods before him, and beside him there is no other god, he is referring to his place in the hierarchy of heaven. He worships his Father, as he taught us to do: and instructed the Jews to do while he was a mortal amongst them: they had worshipped they knew not whom, and he declared to them that he was the great I AM God of their fathers.” [Whether Jesus was equal or not to the Father, refer to the above paragraph]. [Whether Jesus claiming to be Jehovah/God of the Old Testament/The Great I AM--please refer above]. Isaiah 43:10 says, “Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Isaiah 44:6 says, “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:8 says, “Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” First of all, this is not Jesus alone talking...this is Jehovah/Yahweh speaking. The one true, only God says, Before me there was no God, neither shall there be after me, I am the first and the last, I don’t even know of any other gods. [Please read Isaiah 40-50 for a more clear contextual background]. But, let’s assume, for argument’s sake, that “the Lord” here in Isaiah is Jesus alone speaking and that Jesus is a separate God from the Father and the Holy Ghost. Then these passages would not make sense-- Jesus saying, “Before me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after me; I am the first, and I am the last, besides me there is no god; I don’t even know of any other gods.” Jesus would be made out to be a liar...for surely in Mormon theology, Jesus recognizes the Father was before him, and people will become gods after him. But, again, there is no Biblical argument for Tritheism--the belief in 3 separate gods that make up the godhead.

You said, “*Mormons* worship God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ: we worship Christ when he is in our physical presence (it has happened a few recorded times in early *Mormon* history, and occurred in the Book of Mormon visit of Christ to the people of the Americas).” I will use John 20:28-29 to explain whether Christians worshipped Jesus as a separate God, or worshipped Jesus with the intent of worshipping the Father. John 20:28-29 reads, “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” Thomas was not speaking of a lesser God than the Father, the word he used was the same word of God in the Old and New Testaments describing the one true God.

You said, “God the Father of Jesus’ physical body has already endured mortality: this we learn from modern revelation; and that in no way contradicts the Bible, for the doctrine is not there (much that was once there is no longer in the bible, being lost or deliberately removed centuries ago).” I would like to expand on the LDS view on the Holy Bible by using the 8th Article of Faith: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” The application for this article of faith all too often means that whenever theology of the Bible and Mormonism disagree, Mormons are reminded that the Bible is missing many “plain and precious parts” and is not translated correctly, many books being lost. Allow me to make the bold statement first of all that the Bible is translated correctly. Ever since the LDS community began making the opposing bold statements that the bible is not translated correctly, Christians have been on the defensive asking for the manuscript/historical evidence to support their claims. I would like to first begin the defense of Holy Scripture by using prophecies of scripture... Jesus says in Matthew 24:35, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” Jesus says earlier in his ministry in Matthew 5:18, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” Jude 3 says, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” The Greek actually gives us more insight to Jude 3 and says, “...and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints.” A great example of the accuracy of the Old Testament was when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. Many scholars began to translate the scrolls, one of which was contained was the Old Testament book of Isaiah. Liberal scholars, both non-Christians, as well as Mormons were waiting to show that the Bible has changed over the centuries [their thoughts knowing that at the time, the most recent copy we had of Isaiah was from 900 A.D., and the Dead Sea Scrolls were from 200 B.C. --over 1000 years!]. What they discovered was contrary to what they originally expected. The 200 B.C. copy of Isaiah and the 900 A.D. copy of Isaiah say exactly the same thing...with the exceptions of textual styles and grammatical/spelling errors/differences. A good example of the New Testament’s accuracy can be seen by the sheer amount of manuscript evidence. Unlike the runner up to the Bible in manuscript evidence [Homer’s Iliad--which only has less than 700 copies], the New Testament has over 5,664 copies in the Greek [the vernacular of the time of Jesus]. There are also over 19,000 copies of the New Testament translated from Greek into languages like Latin, Aramaic, Egyptian, Coptic... With all the mass amounts of manuscripts collected, one can get back to an original copy of the Bible called the “autograph.” Christians have always challenged Mormon authorities to show us what manuscript evidence there is to show differences in the translations of the Bible, all one has to do is go to a Library and get a copy of the Greek and Hebrew Bibles to see for yourself.

Finally, you ended with, “We understand the Bible better than any other religion, only because we have been given much other scripture besides, clarifying and adding further knowledge. It all fits together (“all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole”): if it did not, we would have noticed long before now! Ignorant people who criticize our doctrines have not studied them with the Spirit of truth, but rather with their minds already made up that all is the nonsense of a drunk of lunatic or almost-superhuman intellect that is in league with the evil one.” It is clear that God would not contradict himself. So if God says in Psalms 90:2, “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God” [The Hebrew says Psalms 90:2 even clearer... “from eternity into eternity, thou art God”]. And Joseph comes along and says, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see” [Journal of Discourses, Volume 6, Page 3, 1844]. This is a clear contradiction...what do we do with this? Well, you have a choice to make...believe God, or believe a man. Deuteronomy 13:1-3 says, “If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your hearts and with all your soul.” In Joseph Smith’s case, he changed what we knew about God, stating that God has not been God from all eternity--as one example of many. I would also like to say that I know Mormon Doctrine very well, and am not ignorant of the teachings of the Mormon Church. I have actually prayed at one time if the LDS Church was true, and God gave me the answer “No” by directing me to holy scripture [I have read all the Standard Works, and am in the process of reading them a second time]. It would be unjust to say that my motives are not right, because you simply cannot judge my heart, just like I cannot judge yours. It comes down to the fact that Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young fail all the tests of a prophet and contradict everything Jesus Christ and the Apostles taught. Please, do not take what I’ve said at face value, test it by the Word of God--the Bible. I hope this is a helpful response. Also, when you respond to me, please use scripture [the Bible] to back up your theological points, unless you are showing Mormon theology.

If you would like to contact me, email me at: PizzaTheHut1@hotmail.com

Casey

Neither are real They are a manifestation of man. you idiots. Get down below your skin and find the real god within. not what you idiots have been taught by other men.

Detroit425: And be as rude as you? I don't think that God is rude. The "god under my skin" is carnal, sensual and devilish and an enemy to God from the beginning. You and atheists everywhere only want to give into your fallen natures, because it is easy and requires no discipline. But the fact remains: God reveals himself only inside of your head: no one else can see what he has done to make you believe: and if you try and explain it, all you have are poor words uttered by a poor mouth: words and writing have NEVER been powerful enough to do more than begin to express what a believer feels. Read the scriptures and you will find this idea expressed often: "words cannot be written or spoken to express the great things taught by Jesus." Conversion comes only Spirit to spirit - in your head - and never any other way.

Relax Casey. Having been both a Catholic and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ("Mormon") I have been somewhat exposed to these issues. I do not struggle with the notion of a tangible God. One whose greatest wish is that we can become like him. He gave us an opportunity to receive a body, be tempted and prove our faith and love to him, and with the offer of the Atonement of His only begotten Son we could return to him.

Pretty sweet message. I am very happy to also have a knowledge that he can personally provide for me, the Spirit of Truth. I did not receive the Spirit by lipservice. I studied and prayed and asked for direction. He witnessed to me that Joseph Smith's first vision and the subsequent doctrine and additional testaments of the Saviour Jesus Christ were true.

I am sorry that you have a hard time with our doctrine. It is not our intention to make it difficult. My suggestion is that if you are truly seeking after pure religion you must ask him. Men will teach what they understand, what fits their needs and what does not contradict their interpretation of things. Put that aside. Quit arguing with people on the internet and get a life.

whats your point?