Celestial Law

Thanks for your reply. Let me point out how Apostle Orson Whitley described celestial law. "It does not mean any one thing; it means all things. It is the FULLNESS of obedience: it is living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. If today, you are keeping those commandments that are now in force, you are living a celestial law, and your chances for celestial glory are good. Amen." Notice how Whitney describes this concept. Celestial Law involves FULLY obeying EVERY word that comes from the mouth of God. It is neither partial obedience to every word nor full obedience to portions of God's word. Instead it is the FULL obedience to ALL of God's word. So do you really believe that you can live a celestial law?

You see Aaron, it's very unfair for those who do not like Mormons to define what our doctrine is for us. We know what we believe and we know our doctrine and we know what our apostles mean when they say something.
The Pharisees did this same thing to the words of Christ. Christ would say something and they would put their own interpretation on it and condemn him for it. They didnt care what he meant by it, all they wanted to do was condemn him so that people would not follow him or listen to him. The truth didnt matter to them and they felt that telling lies in order to sway people was ok as long as they were on God's side and lying for him, which is where they thought they were. They beieved the end justified the means and those who condemn Mormonism believe the same. Ive seen web sites that are so full of whoppers and I have to wonder at these religious people. I know they cant be just plain ignorant because they obviously have spent some time researching Mormon beliefs, so it has to be deliberate...and so they are nothing more than false accusers and liars. Can you see what Im saying Aaron? People have not changed at all over time...they see what they want to see and they believe what they wanted to believe regardless of what the full truth is. Do you really think it's okay for someone outside the faith to define the words of Mormon leaders or can we explain ourselves and then you choose whether or not you agree with the doctrine? Would it be okay for an athiest to tell us what Bible scripture means and tell us whether or not prophecy has been fulfilled according to their knowledge?
I'll be waiting to hear your reply. Thanks

Hi Aaron,
Once again, I totally agree with these quotes! Every one of them. They are so true and so good. The problem comes only when you try to tell me the full meaning and insinuate that we do not rely on the atonement of Christ in all of this.
You want to think that "obey a celestial law" and "obey all of what God has commanded" excludes the command of repentance when mistakes are made. Isnt repentance of sin is part of keeping all of what God has commanded? I promise you it is, why wont you believe me? I'm not an idiot about this Aaron, seriously! Neither was JSmith, BYoung, or JTaylor. And I know, as all Mormons do, that doing all that God has commanded includes repenting when mistakes are made and trying to do better.
Even in the quote, John Taylor says we are not going to the celestial kingdom "unless we turn around and MEND our ways", or turn away from sins, repent of them, and forsake them. Find a quote that says there is no repentance for any person who sins, even if it is just once, and that it is all over for that person. We do indeed believe that if you continue to live in sin and refuse to repent then you are not living a celestial law and will not be worthy to enter the celestial kingdom. I live the celestial law as I stated earlier.
All I can say Aaron is that Ive tried to explain to you the meaning and you do not seem to want to accept it. Are you going to falsely accuse my leaders of meaning what you say they mean here even after I have clearified this for you?
You are making me think of the time Christ said to his disciples that they would have to eat of his flesh and drink his blood and a bunch of them got up and left because the words and the doctrine offended them. Did they want to know what he meant? Did they ask before walking out? Did they come back after the explaination? All answers are "no".
His words were "very clear" to those men that refused to follow him, right?

Aaron,
If Pres. Kimball said that "it is only by living all the commandments that you can have the assurance of forgiveness"
then what exactly would I need forgiveness of? I'd be keeping all the commandments and not need forgiveness, right?
Why dont we just cut to the case Aaron, refer me to the talk of Pres. Kimball that offends you so much. Im sure that if I read it in its context I will understand what he is saying.
Dont lie and tell me your intent is not to insult my leaders. It is insulting when a person takes anothers words and puts their own twisted meaning into them.
I knew what your lure was in your first post. Ive seen this same recycled retoric many times before now.
You say:"I strongly believe that forgiveness comes by faith alone."
I agree *BUT* I probibly dont agree with you about what "faith" is exactly.
A "faithful servant" is one who DOES what the master asks. He doesnt just listen or just believe in the words and commands, he ACTS. Faith without works is dead and if you have a problem with this read the book of James and tell me that "faith is only a belief in your head".
When the man came to Christ and said basically "Master, what must I DO to be saved?" Christ by your definition of faith should have replied "your belief in me is enough, go home and be happy.You are saved by grace not by works or keeping commandments." But that is NOT what he said. Christ himself said "Keep the commandments." Same as his living prophets in this day say.
He said it plain as day and the question was plain as day also. The man said "I have done this all my life." so then Christ asks him to be a servant (DO MORE WORK) and sell all that he has and teach others. The man thought this was too much to ask. Christ required that the man FOLLOW, not just sit and believe. I'll be back to talk about Romans 3:19. Gotta run.

Aaron,
You say it is not your intent to offend and I guess I can accept that. After all, it was not the intent of the Jews to reject their Messiah.
Aaron I do know what it means to be justified by faith. I could exchange the word "faith" here for "atonement".
You say: When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord...they become justified before God..."
What is a person to do when he accepts Christ?
Can he say he believes and continue living in sin and repent no more and try no more? No, not according to the Bible.
Once he believes the message of the gospel, does he need to take upon himself the name of Christ through baptism? Yes, according to Christ.
Does he need to take the sacrament and continue to repent and renew the baptismal covenant? Yes, according to Christ.
I do not disagree with the scripture you quote and I agree with what you said about accepting Christ until you got to the end, because I do not understand from scripture that once converted means it automatically lasts into the eternities.
Is it possible to fall from grace? Yes, according to Paul it is.
Paul had plenty of problems with believers not living up to the teachings of the church.
You say: It comes not by a person's own works but by God's working in that person." and you quote scripture.
It is important to consider the situation and context of these words in Romans. The Jews had convinced themselves that works like sacrifice, circumcision, steps taken on the sabbath and such were the things which would get them to heaven but they ignored the weightier parts of the law like doing good and keeping the 10 commandments. Particular parts of the law, or works, were no longer accepted as needful because Christ fulfilled those tokens. There was no more need for sacrifice of animals because the whole purpose in God commanding this was to remind them of the sacrifice that would be made by Christ. So to continue in THESE works after Christ came would be the practice of false religion because that outward work was done away with by new revelation. Those actions never were saving works. What they spiritually represented were. Works must be defined correctly because the 10 commandments never were discontinued, only certain rituals were. Those rituals became useless, but new needful ones were instituted such as baptism and sacrament.
When I read Romans, I understand that he is talking about the useless ritualistic PARTS of the law that the Jews were so stuck on, not all of the commandments.
I agree with the scriptures written by Paul to the jailer, but belief requires actions. If you believe and love Christ you will follow him and following him requires you to do as he has asked.
There are lots and lots of "ands" when it comes to what the Bible says about salvation. All of these "ands" fall under beleif and faith. I cannot be convinced that belief without action gets you anywhere because it isnt Biblical and Christ never said it.
Who will be found to be saints in heaven?
Rev.14:12 says that it is those that have kept the commandments.
I have to consider all that is written about the topic of good behavior and the commandments.
Mormons are not without faith in Christ. We do not believe we are saved without him. Your pastor may have told you this, as I have heard many lies spoken about my faith from some of them myself. I might as well tell you straight up that I am beyond being swayed. I have approached God himself about this faith (Mormonism) and I have heard from his own lips that this is where He is and that this is the church that teaches with authority from him. If I leave, where will I go? I, like Peter, know for sure now that it is here that I find the living waters. Peter did not guess right when he chose to follow Christ, God had revealed to Peter who Christ was. Nothing can trump revelation from the Father and all could have it if they would exercise their faith and consider rather than condemn. You are looking for fault Aaron and surely you will find it if it is what you want to see. The Jews did not believe Christ and they found reasons to justify their rejection of him. They did not believe he fulfilled scripture and they looked for scripture to justify that notion. He looked so obviously false that they did not feel they needed to pray and ask God if he really were the Messiah. Proof that truth is not always where you 'believe' it is, but where God proves to you personally that it is.
I would send Emails if you'd still like to, but I'm going to be very busy in the next month so they may be sparse at first.
Thanks.